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Old 06-15-2009, 07:27 AM
 
Location: Germany
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It is often argued God's holiness makes everlasting punishment necessary, with everlasting punishment they mean everlasting conscious torment; I will show that this claim is neither rational nor scriptural, but rather insane and diabolical.

Scripture says, the believers shall be holy, as God is holy. Torture, which is to torment others, is no godly punishment, nowhere in Torah or elsewhere in the bible are believers told to torment anybody.

Leviticus 19:2

Speak to all the congregation of the children of Israel and say to them, You shall be holy; for I the LORD your God am holy.

1 Peter 1:16

Because it is written, Be you holy, even as I am holy.

Proverbs 12:10

A righteous man is concerned for the life of his beast; but the tender mercies of the wicked are cruel.

Matthew 12:7

But if you only knew what it means, I want mercy and not sacrifice, you would not condemn those who are blameless.

Luke 6:36

Be therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

Matthew 5:44-48

But I say to you, Love your enemies; bless those cursing you, do well to those hating you; and pray for those abusing and persecuting you, so that you may become sons of your Father in Heaven. Because He causes the sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and unjust. For if you love those loving you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax-collectors do the same? And if you only greet your brothers, what exceptional thing do you do? Do not the tax-collectors do so? Therefore, you be perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

Matthew 18:21.22

Then coming up to Him, Peter said, Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Until seven times? Jesus said to him, I do not say to you, Until seven times, but, Until seventy times seven.

Cruelty, even against beasts, mercilessness and unforgivingness is unholy according to the bible. Now if all these things are unholy, but the holy people shall be merciful, even to beasts, and love their enemies and shall forgive more than seventy times how does this fit to the claim, that the most Holy One is forced to be the most cruel, the most merciless and most unforgiving entity in the whole universe, because His offended infinite holiness forces Him to inflict infinite punishment (torment) on offenders; annihilation would be an eternal punishment as well, but no, it is no punishment at all do some people claim, when it is not conscious suffering. But are all these claims rational or more important, scriptural?

When the saints shall forgive more than 70 times, why should infinite holiness not make infinite forgiveness possible rather than infinite vengeance and retribution?

Is everlasting torment not cruel and merciless? At least according to a human sense for justice it is; shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker? (Job 4:17), wouldn't it be unforgiving, never to forgive forever and ever and ever? And is it something a perfect father would do, not to mention the question if it is love?

Ezekiel 18:32 says:

For I have no pleasure in the death of any one who dies, says the LORD God; wherefore repent and live.

If God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked, why should He keep them alive only to suffer everlasting torment, the bible does not teach the immortality of men's soul or spirit, so if there would any human suffer everlastingly, then only because it's God will that they do so, but it isn't God's will (1Tim 2:4) and the bible does nowhere say that such things will happen.

Jeremiah 7:31

They have built the high places of Tophet in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into My heart.

The valley of Hinnom, Greek Gehenna, is what has been translated with "hell" in the New Testament in many translations, if we interpret the bible by itself, Gehenna can hardly mean a place of everlasting conscious suffering, cause God says it never entered His heart that children have been burned there alive, so I can hardly imagine God would torment any of His creatures everlastingly with fire; whether literal or allegorical fire - that doesn't change anything.

One can argue that the Bible teaches everlasting torment, something that can be refuted, either in favor for annihilationism or universalism, but there is no satisfying rational argument why God should do such a thing, there is also no scriptural argument why God should do this, the bible only says that the devil, the beast and the false prophet are tormented literally for/into the ages of ages [eis tous aiõnas tõn aiõnõn] (Rev. 20:10). About human beings, such thing is nowhere said (Rev.14:11 is only speaking about smoke rising for ages of ages).

The main point for this teaching is the tradition of men in my opinion; the church has been teaching everlasting torment as the fate of wicked as official doctrine since about the year 553 AD according to the will of Emperor Justinian; Emperor Justinian significantly used very unambiguous words, words not found in the bible:

"But writing in the very expressive Greek language, Justinian says, 'The holy church of Christ teaches an endless eonian (ateleutêtos aiõnios) life for the just, and endless (ateleutêtos) punishment for the wicked.'"

Who would say an endless everlasting life, if aiõnios actually had meant everlasting?

One can make the bible say almost everything, as the bible does not actually teach doctrines so many endorse, many had created rather philosophical instead scriptural arguments, that are unreasonable and insane in fact, but believed my many, this I think was one of them.
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Old 06-15-2009, 09:46 AM
 
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But God is just. Don't you think God has to eternally torment the majority of humans especially since Christ took all their sins upon Himself and bore them away?
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:12 AM
 
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How is it torture to mete out justice according to what is deserved?

Do you think God is sitting there giggling as he rips fingernails out?
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:16 AM
 
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It's not that God wants to put them in hell--it's that He is such a Holy Being that it is impossible for Him to be in the presence of sin. Since we have all been stained with sin we are an affront to His Holiness. Therefore we only have two choices: accept Jesus' sacrifice which is payment for our sins in God's eyes and thus He can view us through the Personage of His Son, or reject Jesus, in which case our sins are not covered. How can God let sin into His undefiled dwelling place? Like cancer, it would spread throughout heaven. The only place left to put us is hell. He doesn't want to, but He has no choice.
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:22 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,458,351 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
It's not that God wants to put them in hell--it's that He is such a Holy Being that it is impossible for Him to be in the presence of sin. Since we have all been stained with sin we are an affront to His Holiness. Therefore we only have two choices: accept Jesus' sacrifice which is payment for our sins in God's eyes and thus He can view us through the Personage of His Son, or reject Jesus, in which case our sins are not covered. How can God let sin into His undefiled dwelling place? Like cancer, it would spread throughout heaven. The only place left to put us is hell. He doesn't want to, but He has no choice.

But "no one can come to the Son unless the Father draw him."
And there are Scriptures where God purposely blinds many to Christ.
So should not God go to hell?
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:26 AM
 
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God does not cover sin, He destroys it!!

Justice

HERE
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:39 AM
 
Location: RV Park
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
It's not that God wants to put them in hell... He doesn't want to, but He has no choice.
I can assure you one thing, and it's this:

My Father does whatever He wants. < that's a period

Want scripture to refine your view of our God? There's plenty.
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Old 06-15-2009, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,712,626 times
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Quote:
It's not that God wants to put them in hell--it's that He is such a Holy Being that it is impossible for Him to be in the presence of sin. Since we have all been stained with sin we are an affront to His Holiness. Therefore we only have two choices: accept Jesus' sacrifice which is payment for our sins in God's eyes and thus He can view us through the Personage of His Son, or reject Jesus, in which case our sins are not covered. How can God let sin into His undefiled dwelling place? Like cancer, it would spread throughout heaven. The only place left to put us is hell. He doesn't want to, but He has no choice.


if there is a hell, then because God wanted it, created it and sends there whoever He wants.

if God would have no choice, He would not be God, please rethink what you're saying, you can't back up this claims scripturally, God always has a choice and can do what pleases him, because He is God.

Leviticus 10:1.2 might be an example what happens to people who offend God’s Holiness:

And Nadab and Abihu, the sons of Aaron, took either of them his censer, and put fire therein, and put incense thereon, and offered strange fire before the LORD, which he commanded them not. And there went out fire from the LORD, and devoured them, and they died before the LORD.

I know that this verse has no eschatological context, but it implies that those who offend God’s Holiness and can’t stay in His presence, will rather be literally destroyed than tormented.

I would appreciate if you answer me here:

how do you scripturally defend the traditional doctrine of hell against annihilationism?

Last edited by svenM; 06-15-2009 at 10:55 AM..
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Old 06-15-2009, 11:39 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,295 posts, read 20,036,083 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
It's not that God wants to put them in hell--it's that He is such a Holy Being that it is impossible for Him to be in the presence of sin. Since we have all been stained with sin we are an affront to His Holiness. Therefore we only have two choices: accept Jesus' sacrifice which is payment for our sins in God's eyes and thus He can view us through the Personage of His Son, or reject Jesus, in which case our sins are not covered. How can God let sin into His undefiled dwelling place? Like cancer, it would spread throughout heaven. The only place left to put us is hell. He doesn't want to, but He has no choice.


Read the following scripture, then read what you posted again

Luke 7
' 33For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine, and you say, 'He has a demon.' 34The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and you say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners." ' 35But wisdom is proved right by all her children."


Jesus Anointed by a Sinful Woman

36Now one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, so he went to the Pharisee's house and reclined at the table. 37When a woman who had lived a sinful life in that town learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee's house, she brought an alabaster jar of perfume, 38and as she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them.

39When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, "If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner."
40Jesus answered him, "Simon, I have something to tell you."
"Tell me, teacher," he said.
41"Two men owed money to a certain moneylender. One owed him five hundred denarii,[d] and the other fifty. 42Neither of them had the money to pay him back, so he canceled the debts of both. Now which of them will love him more?"
43Simon replied, "I suppose the one who had the bigger debt canceled."
"You have judged correctly," Jesus said.
44Then he turned toward the woman and said to Simon, "Do you see this woman? I came into your house. You did not give me any water for my feet, but she wet my feet with her tears and wiped them with her hair. 45You did not give me a kiss, but this woman, from the time I entered, has not stopped kissing my feet. 46You did not put oil on my head, but she has poured perfume on my feet. 47Therefore, I tell you, her many sins have been forgiven—for she loved much. But he who has been forgiven little loves little."
48Then Jesus said to her, "Your sins are forgiven."
49The other guests began to say among themselves, "Who is this who even forgives sins?" 50Jesus said to the woman, "Your faith has saved you; go in peace."


The modern day Pharisee

How to recognize him ?

He confesses Jesus as is Lord just like the jews confessed Abraham was their father , Jesus told them their father was the devil.

They quickly forget what God as saved them from and how much they have been forgiven , then put the same burden the Lord released them from onto the unbeliever and weak christian.

They would not go near a so called sinner unless it's to bash them with the gospel which usually involves the threat of eternal torment.

They generally know the word back to front but do not know the author and because they do not know the author all they have in their hands is a dead letter.

If you disagree with them you are either a heretic or something worse or you are not being kind to them.


They think faith is believing all the right doctrines.

They think the sermon on a Sunday is for everyone else but themselves.

They think righteousness is something obtained by obeying God and boast about it .

How do i know this ? I used to be one
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:12 PM
 
988 posts, read 1,576,577 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
It's not that God wants to put them in hell--it's that He is such a Holy Being that it is impossible for Him to be in the presence of sin. Since we have all been stained with sin we are an affront to His Holiness. Therefore we only have two choices: accept Jesus' sacrifice which is payment for our sins in God's eyes and thus He can view us through the Personage of His Son, or reject Jesus, in which case our sins are not covered. How can God let sin into His undefiled dwelling place? Like cancer, it would spread throughout heaven. The only place left to put us is hell. He doesn't want to, but He has no choice.

If God is omnipresent how can there be a place where God is not? The unsaved are not in the presence of God only if they cease to exist.

HK
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