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Old 06-16-2009, 03:33 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,341,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
Fundy this paragraph is very hard to follow

On the other hand I must commend universalists for their deep study of scripture unfortunately it is misguided and you too have problems with your doctrines as well and not for the reasons most of you think. Universalist believe in an unlimited atonement, that God saved the whole word (every human being) well here's the problem, the existence of hell makes absolutely no sense whether it is eternal or partial. Obviously hell does exist since the bible describes it more than heaven, that much many universalist can see and sends "Uniterian universalism" on the wrong path of a ridiculously false theology believing in no hell but ironically are on the right path in their assessment of "unlimited atonement", if God truly died for the world, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" how can there be a hell?, makes no sense; why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting (personally I don't know what is the difference) people even though Jesus died for their sins as well. As a universalist to believe in any kind of hell "correction" must take away some of the power of "unlimited atonement"
If you read Romans 5 and 6 it will give you a clear explaination of your question.

We will need Gods chastisement until it's no longer i that liveth but christ that liveth in me.

We are being conformed to His image , we are being changed into His likeness and so forth
How difficult can it be, if Jesus died for all sins then there is no need for a hell, correction, chastisement nothing. To say there is then you are saying Jesus death was not sufficient enough to forgive all "our" sins
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:36 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
We will be happy to engage you in the context of what all means, and ta pavnte!
Yes please. explain what the bible means, for us not to love the world. Is the bible talking about every human being? but I thought the bible says to love one another?
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:36 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
"all this hinges on and stems from the doctrine of total depravity, and a person who understood human depravity wouldn't raise that objection, because he would understand that there are no depraved people who really want to know God. The thing is they hate God. Romans 8 Verses 7 and 8 says they can't -- they're not capable of loving God or pleasing Him or even obeying Him. They cannot do it. It's impossible for them, because their hearts are so fixed against Him. So there's no possibility that anyone would ever say well, I wish I could know God, but He didn't choose me. And on the other hand, it's also not true that anyone who would resist salvation would be dragged kicking and screaming against his will into it, because what God does in His regenerating work is give us a new heart, a heart of love for Him. And so he changes that animosity that we are born with towards God into a love for Him. That's what we mean by irresistible grace. That's another -- that's the eye in the tulip. And it's not irresistible in the sense that God forces his grace upon us. I use this illustration. It's irresistible in the same sense that my wife is irresistible to me. I find her charms, her beauty, irresistible. And that's what God does when He is drawing someone to Christ. He makes Christ irresistible to us in that sense. So that it's not by force; it's not by compulsion."
My advice to you not that you are asking is to burn your calvinist books in your back yard .
Then ask God to use a bilge pump on you to cleanse you from the teachings of men.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:36 PM
 
Location: NC
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Simple we don't know who are His elect, so we follow Jesus command to go into the world and preach the gospel and it makes that much powerful to go out and spread the gospel because the gospel is the power that will bring the elect to Christ. I think that is absolutely beautiful



How can it be beautiful, Fundamentalist, to believe that God has created the majority to burn in hell for all of eternity with no hope for salvation?? He loves the elect but hates those who are nonelect and they are the nonelect because He intends for them to be. He creates them to have no hope for salvation and to suffer in an everlasting hell. This is a contradiction of what God has revealed in His word and it is a contradiction of love, agape. God bless.

Colossians 1

19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:38 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,341,722 times
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Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
"Pulling scripture" is one thing, and absolute truth is another. Is it wrong to declare that "none can resist Him", and His will is that "all men be saved"?

Or is that too simplistic?

Sovereignty proclaims that indeed He can do whatsoever He chooses, and it's within those parameters that we must bow and concede that none of us can position ourselves as watchman of the truth, for I doubt any of us could wholly handle the Truth.
I never said, none can resist Him. If God wanted to He could make everyone love Him but scripture shows nothing where God does that in fact Elmer. Scripture says, it is the desire of God that all men to be saved, so why aren't all men saved?
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:41 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,341,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post


How can it be beautiful, Fundamentalist, to believe that God has created the majority to burn in hell for all of eternity with no hope for salvation?? He loves the elect but hates those who are nonelect and they are the nonelect because He intends for them to be. This is a contradiction of what God has revealed in His word. God bless.
I never said that God hated anyone. I said, He loves His elect with a special, divine love but he does love all men. This contradicts what you have been taught not His word. I am going strictly by His word.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:42 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,341,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
My advice to you not that you are asking is to burn your calvinist books in your back yard .
Then ask God to use a bilge pump on you to cleanse you from the teachings of men.
You have not given me anything powerful that says, Jesus came to save all men other than your opinion.

How difficult can it be, if Jesus died for all sins then there is no need for a hell, correction, chastisement nothing. To say there is then you are saying Jesus death was not sufficient enough to forgive all "our" sins
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:43 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,683,982 times
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Quote:
I never said that God hated anyone. I said, He loves His elect with a special, divine love but he does love all men. This contradicts what you have been taught not His word. I am going strictly by His word
.

He loves all men, Fundamentalist, but creates the majority with no hope for salvation, specifically to burn in hell for all of eternity? This is agape love to you, love that does what is best for those who are loved, according to the definition? Agape is benevolence, doing good.

His word teaches that the elect have a special salvation, but that eventually all will be restored to the Father. God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.God bless.


Calvinism can not stand with this scripture:

Colossians 1

19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-16-2009 at 04:07 PM..
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:45 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,341,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
And they qualify after they have been brought to their knees by judgement.

You think that repentance is limited to this lifetime only - what scripture says that? The richman and lazarus parable?

Believing means you are saved from wrath - if you don't believe and repent of your wicked deeds you suffer wrath.

Read the Psalm that SvenM posted

Psalm 107:10-21 (Rotherham's Emphasized)

The dwellers in darkness and death-shade, bound with oppression and iron; Because they had rebelled against the sayings of GOD, - and, the counsel of the Most High, they had spurned; And he bowed down, with labour, their heart, They staggered, with no one to help, Then made they outcry to Yahweh in their peril, Out of their distresses, he saved them; He brought them forth out of darkness and death-shade, and, their fetters, he tare off. Let them give thanks to Yahweh for his lovingkindness, and for his wonderful dealings with the sons of men! For he brake in pieces the doors of bronze, And, the bars of iron, he hewed asunder. The perverse, by reason of their transgression, and on account of their iniquities, are afflicted; All manner of food, their soul abhorreth, and so they draw near unto the gates of death, Then make they outcry to Yahweh in their peril, and, out of their distresses, he saveth them. He sendeth his word, and healeth them, and delivereth them from their graves. Let them give thanks to Yahweh for his lovingkindness, and for his wonderful dealings with the sons of men! Yea let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and recount his works with a shout.
Oh please scripture says nothing of repentance in the next life. That is pure conjecture just like the ridiculous notion that Satan and the demons will be reconciled.
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Old 06-16-2009, 03:47 PM
 
Location: East Coast
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
How difficult can it be, if Jesus died for all sins then there is no need for a hell, correction, chastisement nothing. To say there is then you are saying Jesus death was not sufficient enough to forgive all "our" sins
You see Fundy man as got it back to front . God wants man to know He is NOT IMPUTING THEIR SIN AGAINST THEM .

Why is this ? because if man does not know this in his heart he will always doubt God .

15The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this. First he says:
16"This is the covenant I will make with them
after that time, says the Lord.
I will put my laws in their hearts,
and I will write them on their minds."[b] 17Then he adds:
"Their sins and lawless acts
I will remember no more."[c] 18And where these have been forgiven, there is no longer any sacrifice for sin. 19Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water

If man as any doubt that God is against him because of sin he will never approach the throne of grace.

You see Fundy the likes of you fundamentalists are to sin consciencious .

The God conscious believer is walking in something far better than just being forgiven and going to heaven , He is walking in the revelation that is sin is no more .

Whosever is born of God does not commit sin .No that as confused you.
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