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Old 06-16-2009, 04:56 PM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,564,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
How difficult can it be, if Jesus died for all sins then there is no need for a hell, correction, chastisement nothing. To say there is then you are saying Jesus death was not sufficient enough to forgive all "our" sins
Ah, but there is. We are not born of the Spirit into mature sons, are we? Can a babe eat the Father's meat before first taking mother's (the church's) milk?
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Old 06-16-2009, 04:59 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,458,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
There is a hole in your arguement.

Let me summarize my understanding of your argument:
  1. Whomever Christ died for, their debt was paid in full.
  2. If anyone is punished (or chastised, you don't see the diff) then their debt was not paid in full.
  3. Since "hell" is in scripture, we know some are paying a price whether it's temporary or everlasting.
  4. Therefore Christ did not die for all.
The hole I see in your argument is this. Yes, Christ died for His elect, and bore the full penalty of their sins. Yet they are still subject to chastisement and were at one time children of wrath like everyone else.


Chastisement Of God's Elect

  • Hebrews 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
  • 1 Corinthians 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
God Saves Children Of Wrath
  • Epheians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
So Christ's death & resurrection and paying for Paul's sins did not keep Paul from being a child of wrath for a period of time. Nor does it keep a Son of God from being chastised. Therefore if you find someone who is being chastised or punished for their sins or who is a child of wrath, you can not conclude God is not going to save them. That includes those who are receiving many or few stripes in "hell".


PS
1. Hell is not mentioned more than heaven in scriptures or in Christ's teachings.
2. Chastisement = Punishment intended to correct. Punishment can be chastisement, but eternal punishment is not chastisement.

God Bless
1) (Hebrews 12:6) This verse was written by Hebrews to other Hebrews, a warning to them slipping back to their Judaism ways. Hebrews was written to three types; believers, unbelievers who had the gospel and unbelievers who were attracted to Him but still rejected Him.

Corinthians is the letter to Corinth and talks about judging. Sorry I have not a clue what those verses have to do with the elect? Your logic in the elect escapes me. You are way out of context in those verses.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:00 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,458,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I think it's stinks in the nostrils of God
Show scripture. your opinion doesn't mean anything.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:02 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,271 posts, read 20,012,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Show scripture. your opinion does mean anything.
I have about 5 minutes ago

But while we are on the subject what is exactly beautiful about it ?
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:05 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,458,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
Ah, but there is. We are not born of the Spirit into mature sons, are we? Can a babe eat the Father's meat before first taking mother's (the church's) milk?
We are not talking about one's daily walk with the Lord but salvation, the atonement being sufficient enough.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:09 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,271 posts, read 20,012,643 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I never said that God hated anyone. I said, He loves His elect with a special, divine love but he does love all men. This contradicts what you have been taught not His word. I am going strictly by His word.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:13 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,458,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
@ Fundamentalist, at least you can't accuse universalists to do the slightest harm, as your god has already predestinated who goes to heaven and who goes to hell,
scripture says God predestines who goes to heaven does not say anything about hell; let's not jump the gun and assume even though it may seem "obvious" to our fallen, sinful selves

Quote:
no teaching would change it, no single action would change anything, I having almost become a Muslim can understand this fatalism, though I can't share such views longer.
It doesn't matter what you believe, is what I am saying based on scripture or not? prove it.

Quote:
this was used as an argument against universalism, why refute heretics if all are saved? but what about you being a Calvinist, why refute heretics if everything is a done deal? why preaching the gospel, why even posting here, everything must be a done deal in your opinion.
That is a good question and to be honest I have not a clue. I only know what it is told in scripture and what we are commanded. You are asking questions only God can answer. I cannot because I don't see it in scripture. The bible is clear that God has His elect, they are His chosen, his sheep. Jesus did not come to save every person, only His elect. I do not fully understand it because if I could then I would be God and if we could understand all of scripture then God wouldn't be God.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:16 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,458,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I have about 5 minutes ago

But while we are on the subject what is exactly beautiful about it ?
Ok Pcamps....I shouldn't have said beautiful overall but beautiful from this way; which is better in your opinion if you were not a universalist. In your family of 30 unbelievers that there are are about 20 elect or in your family of 30 of unbelievers, you have to give them gospel in creative ways, hoping, praying that you could at least get 5 people on board. Perosnally I prefer the elect which the bible preaches over and over.
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:17 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,458,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I am, prove me wrong
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Old 06-16-2009, 05:21 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,458,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
.

He loves all men, Fundamentalist, but creates the majority with no hope for salvation, specifically to burn in hell for all of eternity? This is agape love to you, love that does what is best for those who are loved, according to the definition? Agape is benevolence, doing good.

His word teaches that the elect have a special salvation, but that eventually all will be restored to the Father. God is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.God bless.


Calvinism can not stand with this scripture:

Colossians 1

19For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross
Yes Jesus is the saviour of all men, because he is our only saviour, doesn't mean He came to save every man furthermore "all men" must believe so why don't they believe Shana?

Yes it can because universalist like to play fill in the blanks. Calvinists do not fill in the blanks nor try to answer for God. Read strictly from scripture and drop your presupposition of who you want Him to be..
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