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Old 06-17-2009, 01:22 AM
 
783 posts, read 1,161,602 times
Reputation: 168

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Well I managed to make it through 18 pages and canít possibly comment on everything I would like to so Iíll highlight some that deserve mention or peaked my interest.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Your taking words out of context and building a doctrine on those words you misinterpret.
This is s
o true; this is the approach of man, which is to establish religion. It is the oldest form of heresy dating back to Genesis 3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Jesus died for all whether or not they believe, Fundy.
This is an absolutely amazing statement. I find it difficult to believe that anyone could read the Bible and come away with this understanding. The only explanation for this type of understanding is that this was the pre supposed belief prior to reading the Bible. Then the focus of subsequent study centered on supporting this presupposition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
The reason you reject and rewrite this scripture is because if you don't you have to accept universal reconciliation.
This is not at all true. A discerning born again Christian canít accept the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation because it is not Biblical.
pcamps, It appears you simply Googled Calvin and did a 7-minute ďstudyĒ. Calvinism does not teach predestination in the sense that your posts imply.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
Our God does not simply cover sins, He destroys sin!
Is that sin destroyed for eternity?
Birdy_56, Please donít answer, I donít need you to post another one of your attempts at ďscholarlyĒ word study.
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Old 06-17-2009, 03:58 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,335 posts, read 20,076,279 times
Reputation: 2114
Is that sin destroyed for eternity?
Birdy_56, Please don’t answer, I don’t need you to post another one of your attempts at “scholarly” word study.

Just for starters


Behold the lamb of God that covers the sins of the whole world . What is wrong with statement ?

Your sins and iniquities i will remember just in this life time but not for eternity. what is wrong with this statement ?
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Old 06-17-2009, 04:00 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,335 posts, read 20,076,279 times
Reputation: 2114
This is not at all true. A discerning born again Christian can’t accept the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation because it is not Biblical.
pcamps, It appears you simply Googled Calvin and did a 7-minute “study”. Calvinism does not teach predestination in the sense that your posts imply.

I have never googled Calvin in my life . I have had very good friends who are followers of Calvin so i know what they are about . They are the most judgemental christians i have come across, which you cannot help being believing and following the false doctrine of Calvin.
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:02 AM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,414,725 times
Reputation: 371
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Jesus died for all whether or not they believe, Fundy.

Quote:
This is an absolutely amazing statement. I find it difficult to believe that anyone could read the Bible and come away with this understanding. The only explanation for this type of understanding is that this was the pre supposed belief prior to reading the Bible. Then the focus of subsequent study centered on supporting this presupposition.


"Yes, Adam's one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ's one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone. Because one person disobeyed God the mass of mankind became sinners; but because one other person obeyed God the mass of mankind will be made righteous."

One man's sin>>>>>>>>>>>>One man's righteousness

All in Adam 1>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>All in Last Adam

Polus made sinners>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Polus made righteous
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:17 AM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,414,725 times
Reputation: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
Is that sin destroyed for eternity?
Birdy_56, Please donít answer, I donít need you to post another one of your attempts at ďscholarlyĒ word study.
Birdbrain loves to answer you and Fundy with his meager attempts at scholarship.

You are indeed correct, our God destroys sin with the brightness of His coming. He does not push sin into some corner of His Realm to exist alongside of His glory & grace, He obliterates it in every life, in every dimension of the heavens, the earth & the underworld!

Please lead us in singing.....

HERE

I wonder what brother Wm. Fullerton could possibly be thinking when he penned such wonderful words?

Quote:
I cannot tell why He whom angels worship,
Should set His love upon the sons of men,
Or why, as Shepherd, He should seek the wanderers,
To bring them back, they know not how or when.
But this I know, that He was born of Mary
When Bethlehemís manger was His only home,
And that He lived at Nazareth and labored,
And so the Savior, Savior of the world is come.

I cannot tell how silently He suffered,
As with His peace He graced this place of tears,
Or how His heart upon the cross was broken,
The crown of pain to three and thirty years.
But this I know, He heals the brokenhearted,
And stays our sin, and calms our lurking fear,
And lifts the burden from the heavy laden,
For yet the Savior, Savior of the world is here.

I cannot tell how He will win the nations,
How He will claim His earthly heritage,
How satisfy the needs and aspirations
Of East and West, of sinner and of sage.
But this I know, all flesh shall see His glory,
And He shall reap the harvest He has sown,
And some glad day His sun shall shine in splendor
When He the Savior, Savior of the world is known.

I cannot tell how all the lands shall worship,
When, at His bidding, every storm is stilled,
Or who can say how great the jubilation
When all the hearts of men with love are filled.
But this I know, the skies will thrill with rapture,
And myriad, myriad human voices sing,
And earth to Heaven, and Heaven to earth, will answer:
At last the Savior, Savior of the world is King!
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:02 AM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,847,304 times
Reputation: 1323
Quote:

"Jesus died for all whether or not they believe, Fundy."

This is an absolutely amazing statement. I find it difficult to believe that anyone could read the Bible and come away with this understanding. The only explanation for this type of understanding is that this was the pre supposed belief prior to reading the Bible. Then the focus of subsequent study centered on supporting this presupposition
.


Hi Salt & Light, I don't see how one cannot have this understanding. Did Jesus die for us when we were unbelievers or did He die for us because we were believers? Jesus died for us when we were in sin, lost, unbelieving. If no one believed in Him today or if no one in the past has ever believed in Him, He still died for them. All will believe because God will open all eyes. God bless.

Romans 5
6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.
7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die.
8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:18 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,656 posts, read 1,716,001 times
Reputation: 845
Quote:
Your taking words out of context and building a doctrine on those words you misinterpret.


this is your personal opinion, I can accuse you of doing the very same, give me a Bible verse that explicitly says Jesus died for the elect only.

Wisdom of Solomon 9:1 KJV (I know the apocrypha have no authority)

O God of my fathers, and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things (Gr. ta panta) with thy word,

Revelation 4:11 KJV

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things (Gr. ta panta), and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

Colossians 1:16-20

16 for in Him were created the whole (ta panta), the [things] in the heavens and the [things] upon the earth – the visible and the unseen, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether sovereignties, whether authorities, the whole (ta panta) through Him and in Him have been created. 17 And He is before all, and the whole (ta panta) in Him combine. 18 And He is the head the body of the assembly, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that should be in all [things] He preeminent. 19 For in Him thought well all the fullness to dwell; 20 and through Him to reconcile the whole (ta panta) to Himself, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by Him, whether the [things] upon the earth, whether the [things] in the heavens.

(Apostolic interlinear bible)

God created the whole (or 'the All'), God created the whole for His pleasure and the Bible says He will reconcile the whole to Himself; now what does not belong to the whole God created, is there anything God had not created?

It does not speak about "things", this term was added for emphasis, it speaks about the whole, the entire creation, as only rational creatures can be reconciled to God, it must include all rational creatures (but I admit that this is the only verse that includes fallen angelic beings, however the salvation of all human beings is told in other passages as well in my opinion).

Last edited by svenM; 06-17-2009 at 07:34 AM..
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:40 AM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,568,569 times
Reputation: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
This is an absolutely amazing statement. I find it difficult to believe that anyone could read the Bible and come away with this understanding. The only explanation for this type of understanding is that this was the pre supposed belief prior to reading the Bible. Then the focus of subsequent study centered on supporting this presupposition.
It's a majority belief of Protestants that Jesus died for all mankind, not just those who will believe i.e. the elect. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners (Romans 5:8). So Jesus died for us before we believed. So Jesus died for me whether I believe it or not. In contrast, I am saved by grace through faith in Christ. Salvation requires faith. Christ dying for me requires nothing on my part. I think you are mixing up salvation with whether Christ even died for me.

Unlimited Atonement - From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Unlimited atonement (sometimes called general atonement or universal atonement) is the majority doctrine in ProtestantChristianity that is normally associated with Non-Calvinist Christians....
  • The purpose of the atonement was universal - Jesus died on behalf of all people, not just the elect

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 06-17-2009 at 07:58 AM..
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:50 AM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,568,569 times
Reputation: 179
Hi Fundy,

Please take a look at this:
  • Hebrews 2:1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him;
If this is to the elect, it contains a threat of recompence for disobedience, which you deny as a possibility. If it is to the non elect, it contains the neglecting of "so great salavtion" which is impossible according to your doctrine since Christ is not their Savior.

God Bless
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:52 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,475,956 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post

this is your personal opinion, I can accuse you of doing the very same, give me a Bible verse that explicitly says Jesus died for the elect only.
Simple: (John 3:16)
16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

That is a qualification, "to believe" that verse shows that God loves the world, right? but there is a qualification for "the world" in this verse, they believe
Quote:

Revelation 4:11 KJV

Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things (Gr. ta panta), and for thy pleasure they are and were created.
I have no problem with that verse because all through the bible God says He created all things, so "all things" qualifies that he indeed created all things.


Creation verses really isn't really debatable because God created all things, nothing contradicts that
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