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Old 06-17-2009, 06:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
It's a majority belief of Protestants that Jesus died for all mankind, not just those who will believe i.e. the elect. Jesus died for us while we were yet sinners (Romans 5:8). So Jesus died for us before we believed. So Jesus died for me whether I believe it or not. In contrast, I am saved by grace through faith in Christ. Salvation requires faith. Christ dying for me requires nothing on my part. I think you are mixing up salvation with whether Christ even died for me.
Actually that is not totally true and you have sort of flipped things, it is true that there is nothing we can do to be saved and it is all grace but God gives us the gift of faith so we can believe in order that we might be saved. so if others don't believe then why don't they and if they don't then how can they be saved?
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Old 06-17-2009, 06:59 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
You didn't address the points I made, you just bypassed them and restated your thesis that Christ's death automatically causes God to ignore and overlook every sin God's elect commit after Christ's death. The scriptures I gave showed that God is found judging and chastising sin in His son's after Christ's death and it shows those whom Christ died for were still under wrath after Christ's death before He quickened them. Christ's death was sufficient to save all mankind. But Christ's death did not automatically cause all sins to be forgiven for those He died for. Where is your scripture showing that Christ's death automatically causes all sins to be forgiven for His elect without regard to faith in Christ?
I didn't bypass anything. I have no clue what this has to be with the elect and salvation. The fact is I am the elect but I still sin and God still corrects me and punishes for me for my good and His glory.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:00 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
have no problem with that verse because all through the bible God says He created all things, so "all things" qualifies that he indeed created all things.

Creation verses really isn't really debatable because God created all things, nothing contradicts that
and these all things (ta panta) is what will be reconciled to God according to Col. 1:20, the elect are not "the whole", God did not only create the elect but "the whole" and "the whole" will be reconciled to God, according Col. 1:20, people living under everlasting torture can hardly be reconciled with God.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:09 AM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,564,185 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I didn't bypass anything. I have no clue what this has to be with the elect and salvation. The fact is I am the elect but I still sin and God still corrects me and punishes for me for my good and His glory.
Ok then I don't understand your original argument which I summarized in my first post and I thought you accepted as a correct understanding of the argument you were making. I thought you were saying that since Christ paid in full for the sins of the elect that any punishment or correction of the elect would invalidate Christ having paid the debt in full.

"if God truly died for the world, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" how can there be a hell?, makes no sense; why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting (personally I don't know what is the difference) people even though Jesus died for their sins as well."

So my answer to your question "...why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting..." is the same as your answer. For their good and Gods glory, God chastises and sourges all Sons He receives.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 06-17-2009 at 07:17 AM..
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:13 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
You are a near calvinist and speak of salvation as a matter of chances?

Ezekiel 16 shows that God wiped out Sodom (dead) and they will be restored and their captivity removed (salvation words) and they will be received as daughters by those with whom God will establish His covenant and also receive.

Revelation 21 shows the Holy City, people outside the City, gates not shut to receive "the glory of the gentiles" which Isaiah 60 depicts as people sitting in darkness coming to the light of the Holy City and entering in.

Revelation 22 shows trees with leaves bearing fruit month after month for the healing of who? Are God's elect still in need of healing? And the Spriit and the Bride say "come!" who are they talking to? God's elect?
ThyKingdomcome (love your name by the way) I wholeheartedly agree with you, there are verses that contradict what I believe as well as there are verses that contradict what you believe. I believe God intended that not to mention in our finite, fallen state we are not able to comprehend such depth in the bible BUT the bible to makes more sense from a Calvinist point of view than any other not to mention, there are less contradictions as opposed to universalism, arminianism and all the other ism's.
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:15 AM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,409,832 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Actually that is not totally true and you have sort of flipped things, it is true that there is nothing we can do to be saved and it is all grace but God gives us the gift of faith so we can believe in order that we might be saved. so if others don't believe then why don't they and if they don't then how can they be saved?
Actually, the elect or first-fruits of His love & grace, "live by the faith of the Son of God."
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:17 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,446,997 times
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Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
Fundy: You were going to explain to us the difference between "only" & "especially. "

Especially=

Only=

"Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers [of those who believe). Command this and teach this."
I honestly have no clue what you are talking about and is that a verse you posted. please explain?
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:22 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
The language of the Koine Greek is a mite stronger than "desires". He willeth all mankind to be saved. His will and His desires, I assure you, always ultimately consummated in His favour!
Then why don't all men believe? and if they don't believe, how can they be saved?

Quote:
"who doth will all men to be saved, and to come to the full knowledge of the truth;"
why aren't all men saved since they don't believe? (do we see a pattern?)

His elect on the other does not have problems believing or coming to know the truth

I see no scripture saying, it will happen in the next life.




Last edited by Fundamentalist; 06-17-2009 at 07:35 AM..
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:22 AM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,409,832 times
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Fundy: You were going to explain to us the difference between "only" & "especially. "

Especially=

Only=

"Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers [of those who believe). Command this and teach this."

You will find this little verse in 1 Tim. 4:10.

Again: what does "only" and "especially" mean in Koine and in English?
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Old 06-17-2009, 07:24 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,446,997 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
Actually, the elect or first-fruits of His love & grace, "live by the faith of the Son of God."
No argument
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