Are we really being fair to universalism? (spiritual, moral, Christians)

[ShanaBrown]

That being said, I believe we have limited the Atonement to only what man can do instead of what He has done. He saved us out of hell, not from it.

If you ask most believers as to what Christ has done for them, they'll answer, "Jesus died to save me from hell".

Orthodoxy had taught them that Jesus died to pay the penalty for their sins, and that was all they knew. They had no vision of the true purpose of the atonement. "Where there is no vision, the people perish." The word "perish" in the Hebrew means "to make naked".

They had no covering because they had no vision.

They had not an inkling that Christ came to lift them out of their condition of death right here and bring them into a place of walking in His life. The benefits of Christ’s sacrifice are not for when you die so that you will go to heaven and not go to hell. Such a narrow interpretation of Christ’s life and sacrifice leaves His saints with no vision of walking in His life until they become like Him.

These saints are the forerunners - or first fruits - of the harvest to come. Believers today are so near sighted (if they see at all) as to their purpose within the Kingdom.

I agree, little elmer. God bless.

[pcamps]

I'm sorry Fundy but you cannot argue against the word , well you can but to no avail.

This following passage from the scipture blows your theory out of the water


15who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
16because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
17and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
18And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] -- himself -- first,
19because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle, 20and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.

I truly believe you are on the verge of accepting that He is the Savior of All , this thread of yours is a last ditch attempt to deny the truth God is convicting you about . It's hard to kick against the pricks.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come

Ok... whenever it is there is still repentance going on. One only needs to read Isaiah 60 and recognize that these two passages are speaking of the same to see this.

• Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.

• Isaiah 60:11 Therefore thy gates shall be open continually; they shall not be shut day nor night; that men may bring unto thee the forces of the Gentiles, and that their kings may be brought.

The "therefore" in Isaiah 60:11 should flag us to read what precedes it to find out why the gates remain open. The preceding verses has men sitting in darkness, coming to the light of the city and being coverted, entering the city, to further adorn it.

I tell you I don't see that, after tribulation there will be people still on this planet who survived and will live under the millennium rule furthermore to build part of a doctrine on Revelations is risky.

[Birdy_56]

Originally Posted by svenM

it's not your fault, but on some pages Greek text is not converted in Greek letters, or when you copy it, it looses its format

I appreciate this source:

Textus Receptus Online! :: Ephesians3seven - "Whereof I was made a minister..."

it should look that way, when you copy from there, the Greek text remains:

εις οικονομιαν του πληρωματος των καιρων ανακεφαλαιωσασθαι τα παντα εν τω χριστω τα τε εν τοις ουρανοις και τα επι της γης

I know it's not that important, but just a tip

Much thanks SvenM....at my excessive age, Birdbrain stands in need of much assistance.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

All will eventually believe. Scriptures which speak of God sending Jesus for the world cannot be ignored

1 John 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God bless.

I am sorry but that is a simplistic interpretation of this verse pertaining to saving every human being.

John is addressing Jews who are the elect and John is telling them that Jesus is their savior but not just the Jews but the Gentiles as well who are also the elect- which was mind blowing for the Jews to hear because the Jews grew up under a racist program of salvation, that salvation is not only meant for them and their little Jewish "world" but for the rest of the elect all over the world. The world still must believe in order to be saved and the only ones who believe are the elect.

Context people. It's really simple

[little elmer]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Context people. It's really simple

Then what do we do with dispensation through the ages? (Eph 1)

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by pcamps

I'm sorry Fundy but you cannot argue against the word , well you can but to no avail.

This following passage from the scipture blows your theory out of the water


15who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
16because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,

It's ironic you use a piece of scripture which the Jehovah Witnesses use to prove Jesus is not God but Michael the arch angel?

I truly believe you are on the verge of accepting that He is the Savior of All , this thread of yours is a last ditch attempt to deny the truth God is convicting you about . It's hard to kick against the pricks.

In the words of Bugs Bunny, "You mus' not know me "vewy" well

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

It's ironic you use a piece of scripture which the Jehovah Witnesses use to prove Jesus is not God but Michael the arch angel?


In the words of Bugs Bunny, "You mus' not know me "vewy" well

The Lord Jesus Christ is God

[ShanaBrown]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
All will eventually believe. Scriptures which speak of God sending Jesus for the world cannot be ignored

1 John 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

God bless.

I am sorry but that is a simplistic interpretation of this verse pertaining to saving every human being.

John is addressing Jews who are the elect and John is telling them that Jesus is their savior but not just the Jews but the Gentiles as well who are also the elect- which was mind blowing for the Jews to hear because the Jews grew up under a racist program of salvation, that salvation is not only meant for them and their little Jewish "world" but for the rest of the elect all over the world. The world still must believe in order to be saved and the only ones who believe are the elect.

Context people. It's really simple

It is very simple and clear, Fundy. Jesus died for all men. 1 John 1:14, He was sent to be the Savior of the world.

*world=kosmos-the sum total of the material universe, the sum total of persons living in the world (Hebrew/Greek Key Word Study)



Colossians 1
15who is the image of the invisible God, first-born of all creation,
16because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things through him, and for him, have been created,
17and himself is before all, and the all things in him have consisted.
18And himself is the head of the body -- the assembly -- who is a beginning, a first-born out of the dead, that he might become in all [things] -- himself -- first,
19because in him it did please all the fulness to tabernacle, 20and through him to reconcile the all things to himself -- having made peace through the blood of his cross -- through him, whether the things upon the earth, whether the things in the heavens.

God's blessings.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Hi there, Fundy, it's pretty clear that the verse is speaking of the "whole world", which makes it universal. Jesus was sent to be the Savior of the world (John 4:14). It can't be denied without denying the scriptures. God bless.

Ha this is where you are wrong Shana , according to John Calvin the world means the elect .

You must try better