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Old 06-16-2009, 11:30 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I will explain how I see things.

The wages of sin is death, not everlasting torment, death was threatened to Adam and Eve and actually happened. For me death is literal death and not life in seperation from God or something like that.

Jesus died to save men from death, from utter desctruction, the blackest darkness of total annihilation, the idea of annihilation is almost more terrible than the idea of hell for some people.

But since Christianity believes in immortal soul, there is no death any longer, Jesus no longer came to save mortal men from eternal death, but immortal souls from everlasting torment, however the bible does not support this view in my opinion.

I think the idea of universalism has the notion of purgatory for many, but it is not about heaven or hell, but life and death.

men are not saved by purgatory but are brought to repentance by judgment I would say or simply by God's will (just as Paul), Jesus died for all men, he defeated death, I believe there will be punishment on Judgment day, everyone according to his works, that means limited punishment, otherwise Hitler would suffer the same punishment as his victims.

hell is the grave and will deliver it's dead, and death is defeated, but not all are right for the world to come and must be judged and set right.

I hope it makes sense.
annhilation doesn't scare me one bit. Is it scriptural that one has to repent or one can be BROUGHT to repentance?

Did Jesus die for ALL men? where is that in scripture?
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:37 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Psalm 107:10-21 (Rotherham's Emphasized)

The dwellers in darkness and death-shade, bound with oppression and iron; Because they had rebelled against the sayings of GOD, - and, the counsel of the Most High, they had spurned; And he bowed down, with labour, their heart, They staggered, with no one to help, Then made they outcry to Yahweh in their peril, Out of their distresses, he saved them; He brought them forth out of darkness and death-shade, and, their fetters, he tare off. Let them give thanks to Yahweh for his lovingkindness, and for his wonderful dealings with the sons of men! For he brake in pieces the doors of bronze, And, the bars of iron, he hewed asunder. The perverse, by reason of their transgression, and on account of their iniquities, are afflicted; All manner of food, their soul abhorreth, and so they draw near unto the gates of death, Then make they outcry to Yahweh in their peril, and, out of their distresses, he saveth them. He sendeth his word, and healeth them, and delivereth them from their graves. Let them give thanks to Yahweh for his lovingkindness, and for his wonderful dealings with the sons of men! Yea let them sacrifice the sacrifices of thanksgiving, and recount his works with a shout.

1 Timothy 2:5.6 (KJV)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:50 AM
 
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Quote:
1 Timothy 2

Instructions on Worship

1I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 5For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6who gave himself as a ransom for all men—the testimony given in its proper time. 7And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a teacher of the true faith to the Gentiles. 8I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
9I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
Paul was addressing believers on how to worship. He was not talking about all men; past, present and future all over the world because if God wants us to come to Him, how can we unless He draws us? Jesus said, no man comes to me unless the Father draws Him. For "all men" to come to Him, they first must be qualified and that is, "they must believe"
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Old 06-16-2009, 11:57 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Jesus said, no man comes to me unless the Father draws Him.
Quote:
Jesus further said:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (Jo. 12:32)

all in Adam are all men that ever lived, live and will live, aren't they?, in Christ they will all be made alive as the bible says:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1Co. 15:22)
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:00 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post

Did Jesus die for ALL men? where is that in scripture?
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." -Hebr. 2:9
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:02 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,453,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post

Jesus further said:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. (Jo. 12:32)

all in Adam are all men that ever lived, live and will live, aren't they?, in Christ they will all be made alive as the bible says:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (1Co. 15:22)
I have come across this many times. You are taking scripture too literal, but you still have one problem, they must qualify, they must believe and how can they believe unless the Father draws them?
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:03 PM
 
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All=

This is how Dr. James Strong defines pa'▀.

pa'▀ =

"Pas; Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primitive word; all, any, every, the whole:--all (manner of, means), alway (-s) any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + bi (-thing), X throughly, whatsover, whole, whosover."

W.E. Vine M.A., author of A Greek Testament Grammar, and, A Comprehensive Dictionary of the Original Greek Words with their precise Meanings for English Readers.

All = pa'▀ =

Adjective #3956

Radically means "all."

Used without the article it means "every," every kind or variety. So the RV marg. in Eph. 2:21, "every building," and the text in Eph. 3:15, "every family," and the RV marg. of Acts 2:36, "every house;" or, it may signify "the highest degree," the maximum of what is referred to, as, "with all boldness" Acts 4:29.

Before proper names of countries, cities and nations, and before collective terms, like "Israel," it signifies either "all" or "the whole," e.g., Matt. 2:3; Acts 2:36.

Used with the article, it means the whole of one object.

In the plural it signifies "the totality of the persons or things referred to." Used without a noun it virtually becomes a pronoun, meaning "everyone" or "anyone."

In the plural with a noun it means "all."

One form of the neuter plural (panta) signifies "wholly, together, in all ways, in all things," Acts 20:35; 1 Cor. 9:25.

The neuter plural without the article signifies "all things severally," e.g., John 1:3; 1 Cor. 2:10; preceded by the article it denotes "all things," as constituting a whole, e.g., Rom. 11:36; 1 Cor. 8:6; Eph. 3:9. See EVERY, Note (1), WHOLE.

"Therefore as by the offence of the one judgement came upon pa'▀ (all) mankind to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon pa'▀ (all) mankind unto justification of life. For as by one man's disobedience the mass (poluv▀) of mankind were constituted sinners, so too by the obedience of one will the mass (poluv▀) of mankind be constituted righteous."
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:03 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,453,301 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." -Hebr. 2:9
for every man, yes, but they must believe. You can't get around that they must qualify.
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:11 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
But the question remains, if you believe in unlimited atonement how can you believe in any existence of hell whether it is eternal or not?
Fundie what is going on in that head of yours?? Honestly, I could not read your OP because it all ran together....please break up into paragraphs next time.

So it seems to me that you are now agreeing with universalists? I don't get what you are trying to say at all. And by the quote above, you seem to be saying that Jehovah Witnesses have it right.

There is no room for wishy-washiness.....stick to what the Word of God says and don't allow yourself to be drawn in to these lies of Satan. You do realize that we are living in the last days, right? Now's not the time for doubt or giving in to other's false teachings because it "sounds good". Are your ears itching?

I think you should listen to the friend who sent you the e-mail.
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Old 06-16-2009, 12:12 PM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,411,186 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
for every man, yes, but they must believe. You can't get around that they must qualify.
What Does Only & Especially Mean?

Quote:
Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers [of those who believe). Command this and teach this.
Especially= malista

Only= monon/ monos

Quote:
He is the Mercy-Seat for our sins, and not for our sins ONLY/ monon/ monos, but for the sins of the whole ungodly multitude.
Especially

HERE

Only

HERE
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