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Believing's not a problem for a big 'ol God- He can show them just like He showed you and me.
What does that mean? what does the world have to do to qualify to be saved? and if He showed them then why don't they believe? why do I have two grandpas who died not believing, why didn't He show them before they died? and if He did, why didn't they believe?
Fundy: You were going to explain to us the difference between "only" & "especially. "
Especially=
Only=
"Faithful is this saying and deserving of universal acceptance: and here is the motive of our toiling and wrestling, because we have our hopes fixed on the ever-living God, who is the Saviour of all mankind, and especially of believers [of those who believe). Command this and teach this."
You will find this little verse in 1 Tim. 4:10.
Again: what does "only" and "especially" mean in Koine and in English?
Your response=
Quote:
LOL......ummmm....first Jesus IS the saviour of all men, we have no other saviour; He is the only saviour, that is all it means, Do not read into it any further and think it means Jesus came to save every person on the planet furthermore the believers are the elect. Humanity has a saviour if not then humanity dies especially the elect and Jesus is that saviour, it doesn't mean Jesus saves everyone.
Do not hesitate Fundy; what is the difference between only and especially. Shall I/we help you? Would you like to use a life-line? Let's see: is there anyone here who can help Fundy?
What does that mean? what does the world have to do to qualify to be saved? and if He showed them then why don't they believe? why do I have two grandpas who died not believing, why didn't He show them?
You haven't read anything about what was shared about the first fruits, have you Fundy, or you read, but just didn't care what we shared. Well.....God bless you.
Remember I love everyone here so please be civil even though you believe this to be heresy. I am still your brother in Christ who is only guilty of professing truth. I ask you to have an "open mind" of truly searching for truth in scripture like the Bereans
Many in here have become dismayed with the direction of this forum. I on the other hand have grown excited to see that this room is starting to dig deeper into theology. There have been many threads on universalism debates in which I deliberately stayed out-moreso debated God's sovereignty with them. A few weeks ago I got an email telling me to be careful in my doctrines because the person believed Calvinist teaching could lead to universalism but I beg to differ, I believe Arminianism can lead to universalism since more universalist come from from Arminianism teaching than Calvinism i.e. Billy Graham "there is a wider mercy".
Over the past few months I have been reading the universalists vs Arminianism teaching dealing with salvation and I must say, the universalist are making more sense than many of you and it is no fault of your own, it is because you have been taught in somehow connecting something that is disconnected - I was too as well as many universalists; primarily, "the atonement", the church which is heavily influenced in Arminianism says, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, that He died for all the sinners because He loves them and wants everyone to be saved, that Jesus death made it possible for others to gain access to salvation if only they repent and put their trust in Him, that is the popular belief most of you were taught and embrace except universalists but if you honestly and fairly look at it, universalist have a valid point because it really doesn't make sense. If you believe in an unlimited atonement (that Jesus died for the whole world, every human being; past, present and future) then you have to be a "universalist" when Jesus said on the cross, it is finished, it means the debt was paid in full for every human being; hell makes no sense because there are people in hell whose sins Jesus died for the same way there are people in heaven? so Jesus died for your sins the same way he died for the sins of the people who are burning in eternal torment? Wouldn't that be double jeopardy, that even though Jesus died for all their sins yet if they don't repent and put their trust in Him they have somehow reneged on the offer and will go to hell? Jesus said, it is finished, the debt was paid. Jesus did not say, I have done all I can, the rest is up to you. The bible says, there is nothing we can do to obtain eternal life, we teach it is by grace alone, so wasn't the grace sufficient enough on the cross? so if it is up to the individual, well then don't we cross dangerously into the realm of work righteousness? that they must do something in order to somehow activate their salvation? Is this making sense to you? It never did to me furthermore how can man even want to seek God since the bible says, we are at enmity with Him that we hate God, that we are children of wrath; children of the devil, we are sinful by nature, that we are spiritually dead yet after all these wonderful discriptions of our beloved human race somehow an individual can activate their salvation by choosing to repent and put their trust in Christ? To believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins and yet people still go to hell because somehow they were not smart enough to choose God does not make sense. Is it an unlimited atonement or a potential atonement?
On the other hand I must commend universalists for their deep study of scripture unfortunately it is misguided and you too have problems with your doctrines as well and not for the reasons most of you think. Universalist believe in an unlimited atonement, that God saved the whole word (every human being) well here's the problem, the existence of hell makes absolutely no sense whether it is eternal or partial. Obviously hell does exist since the bible describes it more than heaven, that much many universalist can see and sends "Uniterian universalism" on the wrong path of a ridiculously false theology believing in no hell but ironically are on the right path in their assessment of "unlimited atonement", if God truly died for the world, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" how can there be a hell?, makes no sense; why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting (personally I don't know what is the difference) people even though Jesus died for their sins as well. As a universalist to believe in any kind of hell "correction" must take away some of the power of "unlimited atonement"
I am very excited about debating this- I have so much to say but I wanted to keep it short and abstract
BUT what did HE want us to do? Love.....What is so hard? Do we understand..?.......if we can not do that simple thing, how is it we can spend hours thinking about what separates? In these troubled times lets help........there will be time to do the other. It is our choices that hold us back! Not misunderstanding a theory but not following the Truth.
Last edited by bluescityleon; 06-17-2009 at 05:10 PM..
You might be right. I don't necessarily 100% put that in the afterlife either. Depends in part on how literally you take things and how sequentially it is written. As written, Revelation 21 follows Revelation 20 and both resurrections. That would put it in the afterlife if it were written sequetially. But I don't think that's a safe assumption at all.
I do clearly see repentance taking place in this verse in the underlined part and people entering the holy city based on Isaiah 60.
Revelation 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there. 26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.
This appears to take place after the first heaven and earth have passed away.
Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband
If you take that literally then that pushes this repentance past the continance of this present earth.
But E.L, Fundy needs help, big time! Where is ILNC? Where is Curly? Where is Alpha? Hello: please help Fundy tell us what especially and only means...please....please.
I'll continue getting my information from the holy Bible and from the HOLY SPIRIT, and not from every twist of doctrine strewn across the internet these days.
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Well.....God bless you.
Good Point........Jesus claimed to be the Truth
Wouldn't that be double jeopardy, that even though Jesus died for all their sins yet if they don't repent and put their trust in Him they have somehow reneged on the offer and will go to hell? Jesus said, it is finished, the debt was paid. Jesus did not say, I have done all I can, the rest is up to you. The bible says, there is nothing we can do to obtain eternal life, we teach it is by grace alone, so wasn't the grace sufficient enough on the cross? so if it is up to the individual, well then don't we cross dangerously into the realm of work righteousness? that they must do something in order to somehow activate their salvation? Is this making sense to you? It never did to me furthermore how can man even want to seek God since the bible says, we are at enmity with Him that we hate God, that we are children of wrath; children of the devil, we are sinful by nature, that we are spiritually dead yet after all these wonderful discriptions of our beloved human race somehow an individual can activate their salvation by choosing to repent and put their trust in Christ? To believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins and yet people still go to hell because somehow they were not smart enough to choose God does not make sense. Is it an unlimited atonement or a potential atonement?
