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Old 06-18-2009, 12:20 PM
 
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This is an incomplete sentence:
Quote:
If Christians back then could come to the future and see how God's name is treated by other believers.
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Old 06-18-2009, 12:21 PM
 
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Originally Posted by svenM View Post
do you think it is possible, that while Calvin's doctrine was right, he himself was none of the elect, but a child of the devil (he endorsed the murder of a Christian), himself predestinated to hell?

do you believe in double predestination? Luther also taught predestination, but only that the saints are predestinated to heaven, while the unbelievers are not predestinated for hell.

you don't have to be a Calvinist to believe in predestination and election, I do not know where Luther and Calvin differ in detail.
The elect are people who believe. I believe there were men who were accused of heresy are in heaven today furthermore I believe that even though we commit horrible sin, we have been forgiven because of the atonement. Who am I to say who is the elect other than they are people that believe

I don't believe in double predestination because I don't see it in scripture.
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Old 06-18-2009, 12:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Total Depravity

Unconditional Election

Limited Atonement

Irresistible Grace

and not all fully......... but I do believe it is based on scripture.
What about Calvin’s fifth point, "Perseverance of the Saints"?

Is this the one point that you don’t necessarily agree with?
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Old 06-18-2009, 12:26 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,472,857 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
do you think it is possible, that while Calvin's doctrine was right, he himself was none of the elect, but a child of the devil (he endorsed the murder of a Christian), himself predestinated to hell?



this is no reason for a Christian do endorse murder, with the same argument I could claim abortion e.g. or sexual immorality is no sin for Christians as it is common nowadays; that religious persecution was common in Calvin's days, is no excuse for a person who professes to be a Christian to persecute other Christians to death, Calvin was the persecutor and he endorsed the murder of Servetus.

do you believe in double predestination? Luther also taught predestination, but only that the saints are predestinated to heaven, while the unbelievers are not predestinated for hell.

you don't have to be a Calvinist to believe in predestination and election, I do not know where Luther and Calvin differ in detail.
Sven...you are speaking from emotion. I believe I made my case. No one is making excuses for him, I am just saying we shouldn't be so quick to point fingers. It was a different time then.
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Old 06-18-2009, 12:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
What about Calvin’s fifth point, "Perseverance of the Saints"?

Is this the one point that you don’t necessarily agree with?
No because I have seen people heavy in the Lord for years and then became an agnostic or an atheist. Even though I believe they were never Christian to begin with and therefore were never the elect.
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Old 06-18-2009, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Germany
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1 John 4:20

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1 John 3:15

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

not only hated Calvin Servetus, he endorsed his murder

John 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

according to the Bible, Calvin was impossible a true believer - an elect, in my opinion

Quote:
Sven...you are speaking from emotion. I believe I made my case. No one is making excuses for him, I am just saying we shouldn't be so quick to point fingers. It was a different time then.
Proverbs 17:15

He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.
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Old 06-18-2009, 12:31 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
No because I have seen people heavy in the Lord for years and then became an agnostic or an atheist. Even though I believe they were never Christian to begin with and therefore were never the elect.
I believe I understand and agree with you on that point.

Thanks &
God Bless
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Old 06-18-2009, 12:32 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,472,857 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
1 John 4:20

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

1 John 3:15

Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

not only hated Calvin Servetus, he endorsed his murder

John 8:44

Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

according to the Bible, Calvin was impossible a true believer - an elect, in my opinion
That's your opinion and you may be right. That just shows the depth and magnitude of God's glory, using a sinner to spread His word
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Old 06-18-2009, 12:40 PM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,472,857 times
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Originally Posted by Salt & Light View Post
I believe I understand and agree with you on that point.

Thanks &
God Bless
You did because I am confused myself I just don't like the perseverance doctrine because it can lead to a false sense of security in one's salvation but then I can contradict myself and say, well if one has a false salvation then one is not the elect. Doctrinal Theology can be so fun at times
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Old 06-18-2009, 12:49 PM
 
783 posts, read 1,161,395 times
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Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I just don't like the perseverance doctrine because it can lead to a false sense of security in one's salvation ...
I agree. I believe that it can be one of the most misunderstood teachings leading many away from God’s righteousness. Sadly, some couple it with baptism and then the theological waters really get muddy.
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