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Old 06-19-2009, 07:56 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,435 posts, read 29,612,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
but you believe Christ died in vain for the most, however I asked fundamentalist.
I do not believe He died in vain!!!!!!!!!!!!! I believe some will reject Him and they will be eternally separated from Him, their choice.
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Old 06-19-2009, 08:27 PM
 
63 posts, read 80,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
I do not believe He died in vain!!!!!!!!!!!!! I believe some will reject Him and they will be eternally separated from Him, their choice.
Man's choice. What a terrible foundation for God's plans to be based!
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Old 06-19-2009, 08:43 PM
 
Location: God's Country
21,435 posts, read 29,612,746 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rockhead View Post
Man's choice. What a terrible foundation for God's plans to be based!
God's plans are based on His Word.
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Old 06-19-2009, 08:54 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,847,304 times
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His word presents a time when all will be reunited in Jesus Christ. It speaks of a deliverance of the creation. He will reign in every heart, but most are lost today, and do not hear Him. God bless.
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Old 06-20-2009, 03:55 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,656 posts, read 1,716,001 times
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Quote:
I do not believe He died in vain!!!!!!!!!!!!! I believe some will reject Him
but practically He died then in vain for those who will reject Him
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Old 06-20-2009, 04:32 AM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,581,174 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
A few weeks ago I got an email telling me to be careful in my doctrines because the person believed Calvinist teaching could lead to universalism but I beg to differ,
It is actually a common route to go from Cal to Uni because once a person personally knows the character of God then they also know that predestination is part of a larger picture of ultimate reconciliation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I believe Arminianism can lead to universalism since more universalist come from from Arminianism teaching than Calvinism i.e. Billy Graham "there is a wider mercy".
People like Billy just get wiser and closer to God in their old age and through life long experiences.

Arminianism is the cornerstone of ET doctrine as it says God will not violate our 'free-will'. The Arminian is able to believe in an all loving God who is simply giving all of us a choice to be in eternal pain, if that's what we really really want.

Of course, Calvinism proves that it's not about 'he who wills' or 'he who runs'. So at that point you either have to believe in a God who purposed ET or come to understand UR. That's what pushes many Calvinists over the line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Over the past few months I have been reading the universalists vs Arminianism teaching dealing with salvation and I must say, the universalist are making more sense than many of you and it is no fault of your own, it is because you have been taught in somehow connecting something that is disconnected - I was too as well as many universalists; primarily, "the atonement", the church which is heavily influenced in Arminianism says, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, that He died for all the sinners because He loves them and wants everyone to be saved, that Jesus death made it possible for others to gain access to salvation if only they repent and put their trust in Him, that is the popular belief most of you were taught and embrace except universalists but if you honestly and fairly look at it, universalist have a valid point because it really doesn't make sense. If you believe in an unlimited atonement (that Jesus died for the whole world, every human being; past, present and future) then you have to be a "universalist" when Jesus said on the cross, it is finished, it means the debt was paid in full for every human being; hell makes no sense because there are people in hell whose sins Jesus died for the same way there are people in heaven? so Jesus died for your sins the same way he died for the sins of the people who are burning in eternal torment? Wouldn't that be double jeopardy, that even though Jesus died for all their sins yet if they don't repent and put their trust in Him they have somehow reneged on the offer and will go to hell?
Bingo.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Jesus said, it is finished, the debt was paid. Jesus did not say, I have done all I can, the rest is up to you. The bible says, there is nothing we can do to obtain eternal life, we teach it is by grace alone, so wasn't the grace sufficient enough on the cross? so if it is up to the individual, well then don't we cross dangerously into the realm of work righteousness? that they must do something in order to somehow activate their salvation? Is this making sense to you? It never did to me furthermore how can man even want to seek God since the bible says, we are at enmity with Him that we hate God, that we are children of wrath; children of the devil, we are sinful by nature, that we are spiritually dead yet after all these wonderful discriptions of our beloved human race somehow an individual can activate their salvation by choosing to repent and put their trust in Christ? To believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins and yet people still go to hell because somehow they were not smart enough to choose God does not make sense.
Exactly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Is it an unlimited atonement or a potential atonement?

On the other hand I must commend universalists for their deep study of scripture unfortunately it is misguided and you too have problems with your doctrines as well and not for the reasons most of you think. Universalist believe in an unlimited atonement, that God saved the whole word (every human being) well here's the problem, the existence of hell makes absolutely no sense whether it is eternal or partial. Obviously hell does exist since the bible describes it more than heaven,
I haven't read the whole thread but I trust someone has straightened this last statement out by now, since it is false. The rest of the paragraph is spot on (IMO).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
that much many universalist can see and sends "Uniterian universalism" on the wrong path of a ridiculously false theology believing in no hell but ironically are on the right path in their assessment of "unlimited atonement", if God truly died for the world, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" how can there be a hell?, makes no sense; why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting (personally I don't know what is the difference)
Correction implies something is actually being fixed not just pain inflicted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
people even though Jesus died for their sins as well. As a universalist to believe in any kind of hell "correction" must take away some of the power of "unlimited atonement"
That's right.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I am very excited about debating this- I have so much to say but I wanted to keep it short and abstract
You should be exited as you have just taken a step into a larger universe.
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Old 06-20-2009, 08:10 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,382,483 times
Reputation: 580
Well, I used to be a universal reconciliation person myself, but further insights into the Word have revealed something that was not quite right with the teachings of UR.

Take this verse for example:

Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven

Now at first glance, this verse would imply that EVERYTHING is reconciled, right? ALL things?

Having made peace THROUGH the blood of the cross. Does this mean that everyone accepts this peace? For myself and from what I have read and learned, it would mean that anyone who accepts this peace, also accepts the terms of the peace. Just because Jesus signed the treaty reconciling the world back to the Father, with His own blood, does not mean that everyone will CHOOSE to sign it as well. It still falls upon us to make the choice.

As we read futher in this same chapter, in the very next few verses

21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death,
((((to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight, IF YOU continue in the faith grounded and settled,)))))
and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

If you continue? I thought it was already ALL?? Which you have heard? Why even hear? Because without hearing how can one have faith?

Rom 10:17
So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

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Old 06-20-2009, 08:18 AM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,847,304 times
Reputation: 1323
Quote:
Well, I used to be a universal reconciliation person myself, but further insights into the Word have revealed something that was not quite right with the teachings of UR.

Take this verse for example:

Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven

Now at first glance, this verse would imply that EVERYTHING is reconciled, right? ALL things?

Having made peace THROUGH the blood of the cross. Does this mean that everyone accepts this peace? For myself and from what I have read and learned, it would mean that anyone who accepts this peace, also accepts the terms of the peace. Just because Jesus signed the treaty reconciling the world back to the Father, with His own blood, does not mean that everyone will CHOOSE to sign it as well. It still falls upon us to make the choice.


As we read futher in this same chapter, in the very next few verses

21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death,
((((to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight, IF YOU continue in the faith grounded and settled,)))))
and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

If you continue? I thought it was already ALL?? Which you have heard? Why even hear? Because without hearing how can one have faith?

Rom 10:17
So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God
Hi, HotinAz, God reconciles us to Himself and believers are reconciled to Him now. All are not reconciled yet (from our viewpoint), because all do not believe at this point. It is a process with the end goal in sight, that being the summing up, reuniting of all things in Jesus Christ. (Eph. 1) God accomplishes what He purposes to do. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-20-2009 at 09:06 AM..
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Old 06-20-2009, 08:31 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,335 posts, read 20,076,279 times
Reputation: 2114
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Well, I used to be a universal reconciliation person myself, but further insights into the Word have revealed something that was not quite right with the teachings of UR.

Take this verse for example:

Col 1:20
And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven

Now at first glance, this verse would imply that EVERYTHING is reconciled, right? ALL things?

Having made peace THROUGH the blood of the cross. Does this mean that everyone accepts this peace? For myself and from what I have read and learned, it would mean that anyone who accepts this peace, also accepts the terms of the peace. Just because Jesus signed the treaty reconciling the world back to the Father, with His own blood, does not mean that everyone will CHOOSE to sign it as well. It still falls upon us to make the choice.

As we read futher in this same chapter, in the very next few verses

21
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in [your] mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled In the body of his flesh through death,
((((to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight, IF YOU continue in the faith grounded and settled,)))))
and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

If you continue? I thought it was already ALL?? Which you have heard? Why even hear? Because without hearing how can one have faith?

Rom 10:17
So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Do you know when you move from faith in His grace to a works based gospel to which we are all guilty of straying to after we become christians, we alienate ourselves from God .
We get saved everthing is wonderful we are full of joy because our sins have been forgiven , then all of a sudden the joy and peace is gone because we get entangled with church doctrine and the burden of a works based gospel.
Well this is exactly what Paul is saying when he says if you continue in the faith grounded and settled. A works based gospel will only produce sin in your life and never give you the peace of God , only a faith based gospel in what He as done for us will give you peace.

Like it or not if you are believing a works based gospel you are alienated in your mind from God and that will produce nothing but carnality.

It does not mean and does not say God is alienated from you , it says we alienate ourselves in our mind.
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Old 06-20-2009, 08:47 AM
 
63 posts, read 80,234 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA View Post
God's plans are based on His Word.
God's plans are founded upon his own will, not upon something as flimsy as man's will!


YouTube - Jesus Messiah - Chris Tomlin [ worship video with lyrics ]
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