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Old 06-21-2009, 09:26 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,817,583 times
Reputation: 1323

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Quote:
First, If God is sovereign, why will His will not be accomplished?

"3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God,
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras) (CLT).

I came to the conclusion that if God wills to do something, He will do it... regardless of what we mere humans say... period.
I guess it all comes down to whether you believe that God is truly sovereign or impotent. I believe that my Father in Heaven is Sovereign over all things in His glorious creation, even the wills of men.

Second, I came to the conclusion that my definition of all is all. I am sure that many would call me heretic but I believe that the Bible is correct when it says all mankind. I find it confusing that people disagree with me and insist that all only means some because God is not sovereign.
Amen, Freedom-in-Christ. Thanks for sharing and welcome to the forums God bless.
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Old 06-21-2009, 10:36 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 4,372,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom-in-Christ View Post
Hi. First time posting but I have been reading this forum for a while and just wanted to share one piece of wisdom I have found. I used to be of the fundamentalist view for most of my life and always had several problems with the doctrinal beliefs of the mainline church. Among the several was a few that caused me to never understand my Father in Heaven or His heart.

First, If God is sovereign, why will His will not be accomplished?

"3 for this is ideal and welcome in the sight of our Saviour, God,
4 Who wills that all mankind be saved and come into a realization of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one Mediator of God and mankind, a Man, Christ Jesus,
6 Who is giving Himself a correspondent Ransom for all (the testimony in its own eras) (CLT).

I came to the conclusion that if God wills to do something, He will do it... regardless of what we mere humans say... period.
I guess it all comes down to whether you believe that God is truly sovereign or impotent. I believe that my Father in Heaven is Sovereign over all things in His glorious creation, even the wills of men.

Second, I came to the conclusion that my definition of all is all. I am sure that many would call me heretic but I believe that the Bible is correct when it says all mankind. I find it confusing that people disagree with me and insist that all only means some because God is not sovereign.
Maybe it is just me.....

I have come to find in my life that some of the most insensitive and angry people can sit in the pews next to you should you dare to question their beliefs. Should I ever input anything here in the future, it will be what I have found in my search for God's character, not what I think you should believe based upon what I believe. You all share two things here that are very special, this forum and Jesus Christ. I have seen friendships and even churches destroyed over angry disagreements over theological differences. I just want to caution all here to speak the truth(as you know it) in love and love each other.

Love to you all in Jesus Christ.
define 'will' in that verse...
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Old 06-22-2009, 12:21 AM
 
Location: San Jacinto
46 posts, read 51,029 times
Reputation: 30
Default If you really want to know the answer...

If you really want to know the answer you must take time and do some reading.

Google thisL "GOD'S EONIAN PURPOSE by Adlai Loudy"

Now, read the booklett.

Google this: "k7vhq" to get my e-mail address and I can help you more if you like... Ok?

Bob
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Old 06-22-2009, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,707,770 times
Reputation: 842
Quote:
define 'will' in that verse...
it seems to be the same word (thelei) as used in the Lord's prayer, thy will (thelema) be done in earth, as it is in heaven. (Mt. 6:10)
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Old 06-22-2009, 02:06 PM
 
27 posts, read 27,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
define 'will' in that verse...
Form a decision, choice or purpose. (the' lo)

Are we really being fair to universalism?-page369-will.jpg


God the Father wants something done, He "wills" for it to happen. Period.
The verses seem clear and precise to me. I have come to find that I believe that my Father is all sovereign over not only myself but all of humanity and our collective stupidity. He "wills" for something to be accomplished and it WILL BE DONE.

I have come to greatly enjoy the CLV as it uses the oldest three manuscripts and concordantly translates very accurately. Check it out:
Concordant Publishing Concern

Here is the online concordance and lexicon also:
Concordant Lexicon And Concordance Index Page

I had to honestly look at my faith and "study to show myself approved" to be sure that what I believe is actually what was given by inspiration of the Holy Spirit of God to man so long ago. I had to grasp tightly to my faith in Jesus Christ and study for many years to find that the beliefs I was taught today are not actually what was taught in the first 300 years of the church of Christ.

I had to study with an open mind by putting aside my pre-programmed bias and begin to find facts or falsehood behind all that I believed and honestly examine the beliefs of others. I found the Concordant Literal Version(CLV or CV) to be the most accurate with the Young's Literal Translation(YLT) a close second. I began to study what the early church fathers believed and taught as given them by the Apostles themselves. I began to find that the church of 2,000 years in the future does not hold to many of the same beliefs as was taught in the first 300 years, pre-Nicene.
I am still on my journey of discovery but I can now pray to my Father not with fear but with love and appreciation for all of His mercies and unfettered love. When I tell others of Jesus, I do so because I WANT to share the wonderful love of Christ, not merely because I feel I am obligated by "religious duty."
Sorry for the rambling but I now have a WANT to share and sometimes I go on...

I am not lecturing anyone, merely sharing.
In Christ,

Freedom-in-Christ

Here is some good information with references:

Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers, Nicene Fathers, Post-Nicene Fathers

THE CONCORDANT VERSION and its translating method explained by Gerry Watts (http://www.purposeoflife.org.uk/cv.htm - broken link)




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Old 06-22-2009, 02:46 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,817,583 times
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Thanks for sharing, Freedom-in-Christ. God bless.
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Old 06-22-2009, 11:32 PM
 
193 posts, read 242,890 times
Reputation: 60
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
Am I to ignore their teaching on the sole basis they did something wrong that they thought was right at the time?


Thought was right??
I believe Calvin did it out of fear.
Inspite of all the things we've done in our past, that Christ has forgiven us for, where do we get the permission to kill over doctrinal issues. Is that Christian. Big difference with Paul. Can't even begin to compare.




Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
It is easy to point fingers now because we live in a different age but in those days that was the rule of thumb. You were executed for even talking bad about the King (monarchy) what do you think you would get for blaspheming the name of God in a time when the church was closely connected to government. I wouldn't be so quick to talk because today we have gone to the other extreme; we have Christians watching and funding movies that blasphemes God's name and don't even care how their Creator's wonderful, merciful, loving name is used. They say, "no big deal". Non believers 200 years ago were more Christian than most believers today because even they had a much higher view of God. If Christians back then could come to the future and see how God's name is treated by other believers. Which do you think they would choose?

So who is right Shawn?



'rule of thumb'??, it is in direct conflict with the nature of our Lord. Over what, a christian who viewed the Godhead in light of Isaiah 9:6. Christ never gave the order for believers to kill over differences in views. anyone see a problem with this. I'd be ashamed to call myself a john calvinist, even if I shared a view with him. Your taking it lightly.

And Christians who fund some movies....???what does that have to do with me and what I believe. I'm not funding movies. I don't know those people. Are you talking about TBN or something? I can't even believe we're talking about this. Funding a messed up movie doesn't compare to killing over views and I'm sorry but chalking it up to 'the times' is silly.
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Old 07-06-2009, 12:35 PM
 
27 posts, read 27,180 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn71 View Post
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
Am I to ignore their teaching on the sole basis they did something wrong that they thought was right at the time?


Thought was right??
I believe Calvin did it out of fear.
Inspite of all the things we've done in our past, that Christ has forgiven us for, where do we get the permission to kill over doctrinal issues. Is that Christian. Big difference with Paul. Can't even begin to compare.
Uh..... yeah.
That is called a "false doctrine".
Should we not "test all things" in light of God's word. WWJD...

I feel that burning someone at the stake because of a doctrinal disagreement is fairly wrong in the eyes of God and I cannot remember Jesus ever saying to Bar-b-Que the Pharisees who thought that the Lamb of God was from the Evil One and not of God.
Needless to say, Calvin was not a nice guy but he was a product of his times. The "religious establishment" used fear of eternal torment as a means to control the greatly illiterate masses. What better way to control the public, "Do as we say or you will burn in Hell forever".
Sad how the good news of Christ has been distorted and misused over the years.
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Old 07-06-2009, 01:27 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 5,683,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Remember I love everyone here so please be civil even though you believe this to be heresy. I am still your brother in Christ who is only guilty of professing truth. I ask you to have an "open mind" of truly searching for truth in scripture like the Bereans
No problem, I am also guilty of professing truth and guilty of truly searching for truth in scripture and I will be labeled a Universalist.

So you have no worries about me.


Quote:
A few weeks ago I got an email telling me to be careful in my doctrines because the person believed Calvinist teaching could lead to universalism but I beg to differ, I believe Arminianism can lead to universalism since more universalist come from from Arminianism teaching than Calvinism i.e. Billy Graham "there is a wider mercy".
It's simple mathematics, there are more Arminians than there are calvinists, so it just makes sense, rather than a platform to favor what you believe.


Quote:
Universalist believe in an unlimited atonement, that God saved the whole word (every human being) well here's the problem, the existence of hell makes absolutely no sense whether it is eternal or partial.
Well, obviously, one person entering into an eternal hell would contradict the idea of them obtaining salvation.

The universalists idea of unlimited atonement isn't subject to your idea of how unlimited atonement must work. A temporal hell, does not contradict it inherantly, you must selectively assert how unlimited atonment works in order to say it does.

Quote:
Obviously hell does exist since the bible describes it more than heaven,
The translation of various hebrew and Greek words have been translated to the word Hell, but the issue is not about the word hell, it is if these words are defined correctly as a place of eternal hopelessness / torture / doom / etc. That is easily a debatable factor of scripture.

Quote:
why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting (personally I don't know what is the difference)
The difference is simple, eternity and correcting are mutually exclusive.
You cannot correct something if there is never a finished state of that goal.


Quote:
As a universalist to believe in any kind of hell "correction" must take away some of the power of "unlimited atonement"
Nope, it is no less a statement of a reduction of that power than the calvinist can demonstrate that they are the elect simply because they profess a belief in that. If you are the elect, why are you still here?

The answer you will give to explain why you are still here is the same issue with unlimited atonement. There is a time and place in how it all happens for each individual.
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Old 12-20-2009, 10:21 AM
 
1 posts, read 950 times
Reputation: 10
When will you people realize there is nothing special whatsoever about this time? When the Roman Empire fell, they thought the world was ending and the second coming had arrived. Were they right? Of course not. The Last Days doctrine is a ploy, it's like a commercial, "Buy now time is running out!". Is time really running out? Nope. You want to know something else? Christianity isn't all that special either. There was a time where Christianity was a small collection of cults, not unlike the pagan temples that worshipped minor gods. You know what happened? Christianity offered more than your garden variety Pagan religions, it offered an afterlife, hope after death, and of course people bought it, and eventually it became so popular a Roman Emperor converted and made it the official religion of the Roman Empire. Not after Christians terrorized and murdered there Pagan relatives of course, or how the "Israelites massacred the Caananites." I'm not going so far as to say your all criminals, because it simply doesn't work that way, but really I think you all should take some time and try to learn what really happened. Obviously the likelihood of that happening is very low, someone alot more intelligent than the vast majority of you said it best, "Faith: not wanting to know what is true". Already many of you think i'm "damned" interesting how the root of the word is dam, which is to stop something, or to cause it to be stuck. I say most of you are "damned" not to a place called hell, it hasn't ever existed. But as far as knowing what is true, what is real, your damned.
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