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Old 12-22-2009, 12:22 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,058,156 times
Reputation: 865
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Remember I love everyone here so please be civil even though you believe this to be heresy. I am still your brother in Christ who is only guilty of professing truth. I ask you to have an "open mind" of truly searching for truth in scripture like the Bereans

Many in here have become dismayed with the direction of this forum. I on the other hand have grown excited to see that this room is starting to dig deeper into theology. There have been many threads on universalism debates in which I deliberately stayed out-moreso debated God's sovereignty with them. A few weeks ago I got an email telling me to be careful in my doctrines because the person believed Calvinist teaching could lead to universalism but I beg to differ, I believe Arminianism can lead to universalism since more universalist come from from Arminianism teaching than Calvinism i.e. Billy Graham "there is a wider mercy".

Over the past few months I have been reading the universalists vs Arminianism teaching dealing with salvation and I must say, the universalist are making more sense than many of you and it is no fault of your own, it is because you have been taught in somehow connecting something that is disconnected - I was too as well as many universalists; primarily, "the atonement", the church which is heavily influenced in Arminianism says, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, that He died for all the sinners because He loves them and wants everyone to be saved, that Jesus death made it possible for others to gain access to salvation if only they repent and put their trust in Him, that is the popular belief most of you were taught and embrace except universalists but if you honestly and fairly look at it, universalist have a valid point because it really doesn't make sense. If you believe in an unlimited atonement (that Jesus died for the whole world, every human being; past, present and future) then you have to be a "universalist" when Jesus said on the cross, it is finished, it means the debt was paid in full for every human being; hell makes no sense because there are people in hell whose sins Jesus died for the same way there are people in heaven? so Jesus died for your sins the same way he died for the sins of the people who are burning in eternal torment? Wouldn't that be double jeopardy, that even though Jesus died for all their sins yet if they don't repent and put their trust in Him they have somehow reneged on the offer and will go to hell? Jesus said, it is finished, the debt was paid. Jesus did not say, I have done all I can, the rest is up to you. The bible says, there is nothing we can do to obtain eternal life, we teach it is by grace alone, so wasn't the grace sufficient enough on the cross? so if it is up to the individual, well then don't we cross dangerously into the realm of work righteousness? that they must do something in order to somehow activate their salvation? Is this making sense to you? It never did to me furthermore how can man even want to seek God since the bible says, we are at enmity with Him that we hate God, that we are children of wrath; children of the devil, we are sinful by nature, that we are spiritually dead yet after all these wonderful discriptions of our beloved human race somehow an individual can activate their salvation by choosing to repent and put their trust in Christ? To believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins and yet people still go to hell because somehow they were not smart enough to choose God does not make sense. Is it an unlimited atonement or a potential atonement?

On the other hand I must commend universalists for their deep study of scripture unfortunately it is misguided and you too have problems with your doctrines as well and not for the reasons most of you think. Universalist believe in an unlimited atonement, that God saved the whole word (every human being) well here's the problem, the existence of hell makes absolutely no sense whether it is eternal or partial. Obviously hell does exist since the bible describes it more than heaven, that much many universalist can see and sends "Uniterian universalism" on the wrong path of a ridiculously false theology believing in no hell but ironically are on the right path in their assessment of "unlimited atonement", if God truly died for the world, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" how can there be a hell?, makes no sense; why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting (personally I don't know what is the difference) people even though Jesus died for their sins as well. As a universalist to believe in any kind of hell "correction" must take away some of the power of "unlimited atonement"

I am very excited about debating this- I have so much to say but I wanted to keep it short and abstract
You wrote ...

Quote:
"Obviously hell does exist since the bible describes it more than heaven," ...
This is the first thing i will challenge ...

Lets look it up shall we ... ?

First let us discard the generic term of Hell ... The word itself is Germanic and it means to cover over in the literal sense.

However a more accurate consideration of the words which are all translated by the one word hell is in order for an honest inquiry into your allegation, so we will discard the word hell in favor of the actual Hebrew and Greek words which were translated as hell in our bibles.


First is the word Sheol, now what is immediately telling about the translation of this word is that the translators chose to translate Sheol with both Grave(31 times) or Hell(31 times), and the word Pit(3 times) ...


Then there is the Greek word Gehenna, which is translated only as hell, and it is mentioned a grand total of 9 times throughout scripture.


Then the Greek word Hades, which like the Hebrew word Sheol was translated as Hell(10 times) and as the grave(1 time) ...


Finally the word tartaroo which was mentioned only once and was translated as hell.




Now the word heaven(398 times) is the translation of the Hebrew word shamayim, it is also tranlated as air. Heaven is also translated as the Greek word ouranos, which is translated as Heaven 268 times, as air(10 times) and as Sky (5 times) ... Also The Greek word mesouranēma a is translated 3 times as the "the midst of heaven"

So though the words Sheol and Hades are pretty much the same concept, as the Greek word Hades is the exact translation of the Hebrew word Sheol, and beside the fact that these two terms in scripture actually refer to the grave and not these supposed hell of orthodox Fundamental Christianity, we will count the times these words were translated as hell in favor of the count of how many times the bible refers to hell in comparison to heaven ...


The word Hell is to be found a grand total of ... (drum-roll) 53 times in schritpure ...


And the word heaven is found a grand total of ... (drum-roll) 569 times ...



And though there are many times when the word heaven may not be referring to the spiritual habitation of God, it is never the less every time the exact same words which are used to describe throughout scripture the kingdom and the throne and the habitation of God, that are at the same time the very words used to refer to the sky and the starry expanse beyond.


Make whatever you will out of these figures but it is evident that heaven is spoken of far more often than Hell ...

The fact of the matter is that the doctrines which teach of an afterlife in "heaven" or in "Hell" can easily be shown to be dubious at best, in that they are referring mainly to the expanses above and the earthy grave beneath in almost every case, beside the use of the words Gehenna and tartaroo, both of which stand in stark contrast to the words sheol and Hades as to their exact meanings. Gehenna was/ is an actual place on earth that in the times of Christ was quite literally on fire 24/7, and this is the context in which it was used 8 out of the 9 times it was used in scripture ...


Again the idea that Hell is spoken of more often in the bible than heaven is so erroneous and is such a blatantly ignorant argument which i have seen many Orthodox fundamentalist teachers use to add a false sense of authority to their position, i'm surprised someone would attempt to use the argument here on C-D where most of us are at least veteran in or studies.

It really just goes to show how much of orthodox fundamental Christianity is based on exoteric mythologies which cannot be supported on a through examination of scriptures. What we know as Christianity today is not the same Christianity that existed in the first 300 years AD. There is no doubt that there were many Christian writers and some theologians who even in those times had adopted these pagan concepts of the afterlife and intermixed them with Christianity. The pagan world began infiltrating the Christian paradigm in the first century, as Simon Magus was one of the earliest examples ...
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Old 12-22-2009, 12:35 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,058,156 times
Reputation: 865
Quote:
Originally Posted by bobwtodd View Post
If you really want to know the answer you must take time and do some reading.

Google thisL "GOD'S EONIAN PURPOSE by Adlai Loudy"

Now, read the booklett.

Google this: "k7vhq" to get my e-mail address and I can help you more if you like... Ok?

Bob
Thanks for the material BobWTodd ...
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:27 PM
 
22,158 posts, read 9,898,266 times
Reputation: 3740
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist
Remember I love everyone here so please be civil even though you believe this to be heresy. I am still your brother in Christ who is only guilty of professing truth. I ask you to have an "open mind" of truly searching for truth in scripture like the Bereans

Many in here have become dismayed with the direction of this forum. I on the other hand have grown excited to see that this room is starting to dig deeper into theology. There have been many threads on universalism debates in which I deliberately stayed out-moreso debated God's sovereignty with them. A few weeks ago I got an email telling me to be careful in my doctrines because the person believed Calvinist teaching could lead to universalism but I beg to differ, I believe Arminianism can lead to universalism since more universalist come from from Arminianism teaching than Calvinism i.e. Billy Graham "there is a wider mercy".

Over the past few months I have been reading the universalists vs Arminianism teaching dealing with salvation and I must say, the universalist are making more sense than many of you and it is no fault of your own, it is because you have been taught in somehow connecting something that is disconnected - I was too as well as many universalists; primarily, "the atonement", the church which is heavily influenced in Arminianism says, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, that He died for all the sinners because He loves them and wants everyone to be saved, that Jesus death made it possible for others to gain access to salvation if only they repent and put their trust in Him, that is the popular belief most of you were taught and embrace except universalists but if you honestly and fairly look at it, universalist have a valid point because it really doesn't make sense. If you believe in an unlimited atonement (that Jesus died for the whole world, every human being; past, present and future) then you have to be a "universalist" when Jesus said on the cross, it is finished, it means the debt was paid in full for every human being; hell makes no sense because there are people in hell whose sins Jesus died for the same way there are people in heaven? so Jesus died for your sins the same way he died for the sins of the people who are burning in eternal torment? Wouldn't that be double jeopardy, that even though Jesus died for all their sins yet if they don't repent and put their trust in Him they have somehow reneged on the offer and will go to hell? Jesus said, it is finished, the debt was paid. Jesus did not say, I have done all I can, the rest is up to you. The bible says, there is nothing we can do to obtain eternal life, we teach it is by grace alone, so wasn't the grace sufficient enough on the cross? so if it is up to the individual, well then don't we cross dangerously into the realm of work righteousness? that they must do something in order to somehow activate their salvation? Is this making sense to you? It never did to me furthermore how can man even want to seek God since the bible says, we are at enmity with Him that we hate God, that we are children of wrath; children of the devil, we are sinful by nature, that we are spiritually dead yet after all these wonderful discriptions of our beloved human race somehow an individual can activate their salvation by choosing to repent and put their trust in Christ? To believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins and yet people still go to hell because somehow they were not smart enough to choose God does not make sense. Is it an unlimited atonement or a potential atonement?

On the other hand I must commend universalists for their deep study of scripture unfortunately it is misguided and you too have problems with your doctrines as well and not for the reasons most of you think. Universalist believe in an unlimited atonement, that God saved the whole word (every human being) well here's the problem, the existence of hell makes absolutely no sense whether it is eternal or partial. Obviously hell does exist since the bible describes it more than heaven, that much many universalist can see and sends "Uniterian universalism" on the wrong path of a ridiculously false theology believing in no hell but ironically are on the right path in their assessment of "unlimited atonement", if God truly died for the world, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" how can there be a hell?, makes no sense; why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting (personally I don't know what is the difference) people even though Jesus died for their sins as well. As a universalist to believe in any kind of hell "correction" must take away some of the power of "unlimited atonement"

I am very excited about debating this- I have so much to say but I wanted to keep it short and abstract
I am sorry I missed this post, Fundy. Congraulations . . you are indeed entering a better place. I am pleased for you, my brother. The mistake is on considering the "correction" talked about here as related in any way to salvation . . . it is not. Correction is related to meeting the requirements for successfully "harmonizing" with God. The consequences of failure are correctable thanks to Jesus . . . but they still must be corrected.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:52 PM
 
78 posts, read 55,067 times
Reputation: 39
Quote:
Correction is related to meeting the requirements for successfully "harmonizing" with God. The consequences of failure are correctable thanks to Jesus . . . but they still must be corrected.
Quote:
and so they will be

Isa 26:9 - With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
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