Are we really being fair to universalism? (Sodom, disciple, Israel)

[Meerkat2]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

again "all" "men", "world", "us", is not what you think it is. This is directed at His elect not all men.

When it say "saviour of all, especially believers" by your thinking this says saviour of all ELECT. but this can't be because it goes on to say especially believers.

In John 3:16 It says that if we believe we will not perish - it can't mean physcially die as believers still die a physical death after believing - In other places we are told that Jesus came to save the lost (perished)

Mat 18:11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost

lost/perished is the same word used G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.


John 3:16-18 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

God sent Jesus to save the lost - if you believe, you are not condemned and you are not lost and will not perish

If you don't believe, you are condemned and are lost/perished, and those are the ones that Jesus came to save

I think that your reasoning goes against Jesus words


Mat 9:10 And it came to pass, as Jesus sat at meat in the house, behold, many publicans and sinners came and sat down with him and his disciples.
Mat 9:11 And when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto his disciples, Why eateth your Master with publicans and sinners?
Mat 9:12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.
Mat 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Your theology is that Jesus came for the righteous /elect



The life that we receive is life in this age (now) and we do NOT perish. That does not mean that once this age is over that the life ends because we are told in 1 Cor that mortal is changed to immortal and that is not limited to only the elect it is for all ........ after the living/saved have their life in the age and the lost have their correction/judgement in the age.

1Co 15:35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

This says that what is sown is not quickened unless it dies first - only then it is quickened

After the second death comes the quickening

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come

Last I checked the word "elect" is in God's vocabulary. It doesn't matter if the verse is written to God's elect. It's written about all men. And it's true.

actually it does matter because then what would be the point of the verse if we are not reading it correctly and even if it is written to "all men" it is clear that is written to those that believe. "all men" are the elect

[pcamps]

Also how do you get around the scripture,there is no hint of a chosen few in there


18and all things [are] of the God who has reconciled us to himself by [Jesus] Christ, and given to us the ministry of that reconciliation: 19how that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation.

You are blatantly denying the word .

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by meerkat2

When it say "saviour of all, especially believers" by your thinking this says saviour of all ELECT. but this can't be because it goes on to say especially believers.

In John 3:16 It says that if we believe we will not perish - it can't mean physcially die as believers still die a physical death after believing - In other places we are told that Jesus came to save the lost (perished)

Mat 18:11 For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost

..........

There is nothing in scripture to prove we have a second chance after death.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Also how do you get around the scripture,there is no hint of a chosen few in there


18and all things [are] of the God who has reconciled us to himself by [Jesus] Christ, and given to us the ministry of that reconciliation: 19how that God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation.

Easy, He is speaking about His elect. "us", "the world" is the elect; His elect all over the world.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Easy, He is speaking about His elect. "us" is the elect

No He is speaking to the world , and to this SAME WORLD He is not imputing their sins.

So you are saying it should read


18and the elect [are] of the God who has reconciled us to himself by [Jesus] Christ, and given to us the ministry of that reconciliation: 19how that God was in Christ, reconciling the elect to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by pcamps

No He is speaking to the world , and to this SAME WORLD He is not imputing their sins.

So you are saying it should read


18and the elect [are] of the God who has reconciled us to himself by [Jesus] Christ, and given to us the ministry of that reconciliation: 19how that God was in Christ, reconciling the elect to himself, not reckoning to them their offences; and putting in us the word of that reconciliation.

Sorry but all through the bible God says He will judge the unrighteous and yet now He contradicts Himself and will not impute their sins? This is His chosen, His elect He is speaking about, those He will not judge, those He will forgive.

You have to remember how racist the Jews were, so Paul and others had to use the term world at times to represent the Gentiles. The Jews had to understand that salvation was not limited to only them. "The world" can be used for many different things in the right context and qualification.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Sorry but all through the bible God says He will judge the unrighteous and yet now He contradicts Himself and will not impute their sins? This is His chosen, His elect He is speaking about, those He will not judge, those He will forgive.

You have to remember how racist the Jews were, so Paul and others had to use the term world at times to represent the Gentiles. The Jews had to understand that salvation was not limited to only them. "The world" can be used for many different things in the right context and qualification.

There is no contradiction , it's you denying the word and making a mockery of it by changing the word world(humanity) to elect to fit your calvinist doctrine . I have heard it all now

God will judge the unrighteous, we who believe in universal reconciliation have no problem with that .

Judgement is not condemnation

The reason you reject and rewrite this scripture is because if you don't you have to accept universal reconciliation


54And his disciples James and John seeing [it] said, Lord, wilt thou that we speak [that] fire come down from heaven and consume them, as also Elias did? 55But turning he rebuked them [and said, Ye know not of what spirit ye are].

Jesus came to save not to destroy .

[I LOVE NORTH CAROLINA]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

limited atonement?

I believe ALL my sins are covered under the blood of Jesus, so my answer is no.

[Thy Kingdom Come]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

God's elect are those that believe. Jesus died for His elect. If Jesus death was sufficient then all sins are forgiven. why the correction in the after life?

You didn't address the points I made, you just bypassed them and restated your thesis that Christ's death automatically causes God to ignore and overlook every sin God's elect commit after Christ's death. The scriptures I gave showed that God is found judging and chastising sin in His son's after Christ's death and it shows those whom Christ died for were still under wrath after Christ's death before He quickened them. Christ's death was sufficient to save all mankind. But Christ's death did not automatically cause all sins to be forgiven for those He died for. Where is your scripture showing that Christ's death automatically causes all sins to be forgiven for His elect without regard to faith in Christ?