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Old 06-16-2009, 08:25 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,437,896 times
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Remember I love everyone here so please be civil even though you believe this to be heresy. I am still your brother in Christ who is only guilty of professing truth. I ask you to have an "open mind" of truly searching for truth in scripture like the Bereans

Many in here have become dismayed with the direction of this forum. I on the other hand have grown excited to see that this room is starting to dig deeper into theology. There have been many threads on universalism debates in which I deliberately stayed out-moreso debated God's sovereignty with them. A few weeks ago I got an email telling me to be careful in my doctrines because the person believed Calvinist teaching could lead to universalism but I beg to differ, I believe Arminianism can lead to universalism since more universalist come from from Arminianism teaching than Calvinism i.e. Billy Graham "there is a wider mercy".

Over the past few months I have been reading the universalists vs Arminianism teaching dealing with salvation and I must say, the universalist are making more sense than many of you and it is no fault of your own, it is because you have been taught in somehow connecting something that is disconnected - I was too as well as many universalists; primarily, "the atonement", the church which is heavily influenced in Arminianism says, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, that He died for all the sinners because He loves them and wants everyone to be saved, that Jesus death made it possible for others to gain access to salvation if only they repent and put their trust in Him, that is the popular belief most of you were taught and embrace except universalists but if you honestly and fairly look at it, universalist have a valid point because it really doesn't make sense. If you believe in an unlimited atonement (that Jesus died for the whole world, every human being; past, present and future) then you have to be a "universalist" when Jesus said on the cross, it is finished, it means the debt was paid in full for every human being; hell makes no sense because there are people in hell whose sins Jesus died for the same way there are people in heaven? so Jesus died for your sins the same way he died for the sins of the people who are burning in eternal torment? Wouldn't that be double jeopardy, that even though Jesus died for all their sins yet if they don't repent and put their trust in Him they have somehow reneged on the offer and will go to hell? Jesus said, it is finished, the debt was paid. Jesus did not say, I have done all I can, the rest is up to you. The bible says, there is nothing we can do to obtain eternal life, we teach it is by grace alone, so wasn't the grace sufficient enough on the cross? so if it is up to the individual, well then don't we cross dangerously into the realm of work righteousness? that they must do something in order to somehow activate their salvation? Is this making sense to you? It never did to me furthermore how can man even want to seek God since the bible says, we are at enmity with Him that we hate God, that we are children of wrath; children of the devil, we are sinful by nature, that we are spiritually dead yet after all these wonderful discriptions of our beloved human race somehow an individual can activate their salvation by choosing to repent and put their trust in Christ? To believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins and yet people still go to hell because somehow they were not smart enough to choose God does not make sense. Is it an unlimited atonement or a potential atonement?

On the other hand I must commend universalists for their deep study of scripture unfortunately it is misguided and you too have problems with your doctrines as well and not for the reasons most of you think. Universalist believe in an unlimited atonement, that God saved the whole word (every human being) well here's the problem, the existence of hell makes absolutely no sense whether it is eternal or partial. Obviously hell does exist since the bible describes it more than heaven, that much many universalist can see and sends "Uniterian universalism" on the wrong path of a ridiculously false theology believing in no hell but ironically are on the right path in their assessment of "unlimited atonement", if God truly died for the world, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" how can there be a hell?, makes no sense; why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting (personally I don't know what is the difference) people even though Jesus died for their sins as well. As a universalist to believe in any kind of hell "correction" must take away some of the power of "unlimited atonement"

I am very excited about debating this- I have so much to say but I wanted to keep it short and abstract

Last edited by Fundamentalist; 06-16-2009 at 09:35 AM..
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:45 AM
 
17,968 posts, read 12,407,641 times
Reputation: 989
There is no one presently in hell.

Christ died for our sins yet there is still capital punishment in America. Yet that makes sense to you, right?

So why does it not make sense for there to be capital punishment in Israel during the millennium (dead bodies cast into the fires of Gehenna)?

Christ died for our sins. He did not die to keep us from loving correction and chastening.

It makes perfect sense to me.

Even believers who believed Christ died for their sins received the death sentence from God (see 1 Corinthians 11:30-32 CLV (30) "Therefore many among you are infirm and ailing, and a considerable number are reposing." (31) For if we adjudicated ourselves, we would not be judged." (32) Yet, being judged, we are being disciplined by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.") Yet they are still saved. Their judgment did not limit the atonement.
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Metro Detroit
428 posts, read 690,798 times
Reputation: 123
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Remember I love everyone here so please be civil. I am still your brother in Christ who is only guilty of professing truth. I ask you to have an "open mind" of truly searching for truth in scripture like the Bereans

Many in here have become dismayed with the direction of this forum. I on the other hand have grown excited to see that this room is starting to dig deeper into theology. There have been many threads on universalism debates in which I deliberately stayed out-moreso debated God's sovereignty with them. A few weeks ago I got an email telling me to be careful in my doctrines because the person believed Calvinist teaching could lead to universalism but I beg to differ, I believe Arminianism can lead to universalism since more universalist come from from Arminianism teaching than Calvinism i.e. Billy Graham "there is a wider mercy".

Over the past few months I have been reading the universalists vs Arminianism teaching dealing with salvation and I must say, the universalist are making more sense than many of you and it is no fault of your own, it is because you have been taught in somehow connecting something that is disconnected - I was too as well as many universalists; primarily, "the atonement", the church which is heavily influenced in Arminianism says, that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, that He died for all the sinners because He loves them and wants everyone to be saved, that Jesus death made it possible for others to gain access to salvation if only they repent and put their trust in Him, that is the popular belief, most of you were taught and believe except universalists but if you honestly, fairly look at it, universalist have a valid point, it doesn't make sense. If you believe in an unlimited atonement (that Jesus died for the whole world, every human being; past, present and future) then you have to be a "universalist" when Jesus said on the cross, it is finished, it means the debt was paid in full for every human being; hell makes no sense because there are people in hell whose sins Jesus died for the same way there are people in heaven? so Jesus died for your sins the same way he died for the sins of the people who are burning in eternal torment? Wouldn't that be double jeopardy, that even though Jesus died for all their sins yet if they don't repent and put their trust in Him they have somehow reneged on the offer and will go to hell? Jesus said, it is finished, the debt was paid. Jesus did not say, I have done all I can, the rest is up to you. The bible says, there is nothing we can do to obtain eternal life, we teach it is by grace alone, so wasn't the grace sufficient enough on the cross? so if it is up to the individual, well then don't we cross dangerously into the realm of work righteousness? that they must do something in order to somehow activate their salvation? Is this making sense to you? It never did to me furthermore how can man even want to seek God since the bible says, we are at enmity with Him that we hate God, that we are children of wrath; children of the devil, we are sinful by nature, that we are spiritually dead yet after all these wonderful discriptions of our beloved human race somehow an individual can activate their salvation by choosing to repent and put their trust in Christ? To believe that Jesus died for everyone's sins and yet people still go to hell because somehow they were not smart enough to choose God makes absolutely no sense.

On the other hand I must commend universalists for their deep study of scripture unfortunately it is misguided and you too have problems with your doctrines as well and not for the reasons most of you think. Universalist believe in an unlimited atonement, that God saved the whole word (every human being) well here's the problem, the existence of hell makes absolutely no sense whether it is eternal or partial. Obviously hell does exist since the bible describes it more than heaven, that much many universalist can see and sends "Uniterian universalism" on the wrong path of a ridiculously false theology believing in no hell but ironically are on the right path in their assessment of "unlimited atonement", if God truly died for the world, "Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world" how can there be a hell?, makes no sense; why is God still punishing errrr....sorry I mean correcting (personally I don't know what is the difference) people even though Jesus died for their sins as well. As a universalist to believe in any kind of hell must take away some of the power of "unlimited atonement"

I am very excited about debating this- I have so much to say but I wanted to keep it short and abstract
Can't wait to debate....but busy now! Will be on ASAP to discuss...

God bless Fundie...

Daddy3.0
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:50 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,703,493 times
Reputation: 842
Quote:
Obviously hell does exist since the bible describes it more than heaven,
This is something one can debate:

according to the interlinear scripture analyzer the Hebrew word for heaven (it can also mean sky) occurs 251 times.

great tool: Scripture4all - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Sheol (translated grave and hell in the KJV) occurs about 66 times in the Old Testament.

the Old Testament does not teach an afterlife at all in my opinion (the Sadducces believed in the authority of the Pentateuch only as far as I know and rejected therefore the idea of a ressurection, not to mention the hellenist idea of the immortal soul)

Hades occurs 10 (11 times in the Textus Receptus) in the New Testament, 4 times in the Gospels

Gehenna (hell, or the valley of hinnom occurs 12 times in the New Testament)

the darkness outside, the weeping and gnashing of teeth, even the furnace of fire (only 2 times in the bible), none of this expressions are in any relation to gehenna or hades.

sheol and heaven are contrasted directly in one verse only:

Job 11:8 (Darby)
It is as the heights of heaven; what wilt thou do? deeper than Sheol; what canst thou know?

but this is what Job believed about sheol:

Oh that thou wouldest hide me in Sheol, that thou wouldest keep me secret until thine anger be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me, (Job 14:13) For now should I have lain down and been quiet; I should have slept: then had I been at rest, With kings and counsellors of the earth, who build desolate places for themselves, Or with princes who had gold, who filled their houses with silver; Or as a hidden untimely birth I had not been; as infants that have not seen the light. There the wicked cease from troubling; and there the wearied are at rest. The prisoners together are at ease; they hear not the voice of the taskmaster. The small and great are there, and the bondman freed from his master. (Job 3:13-19; Darby)

This doesn't sound like hell at all. I will write on conditional immortality later, but I think this is enough input for the moment.
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:11 AM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,408,544 times
Reputation: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
I am very excited about debating this- I have so much to say but I wanted to keep it short and abstract
Go for it!

"In most discussions each person has some point to maintain, and his object is to justify his own thesis and disprove his neighbor's. He may have originally adopted his thesis because of some sign of truth in it, but his mode of supporting it is generally to block up every cranny of his soul at which more truth might enter. -George MacDonald-"

"Wise and prudent religious men, careful to make the words of his messengers rhyme with their conclusions, interpret the great heart of God, not by their own hearts, but by their intellects. Then, postponing the obedience that alone can give power to the understanding, they press upon men's minds their own low interpretations, instead of by their own example impressing the doing of that will upon their hearts. -George MacDonald"
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:14 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,437,896 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
Go for it!

Quote:
In most discussions each person has some point to maintain, and his object is to justify his own thesis and disprove his neighbor's. He may have originally adopted his thesis because of some sign of truth in it, but his mode of supporting it is generally to block up every cranny of his soul at which more truth might enter.
Quote:
Wise and prudent religious men, careful to make the words of his messengers rhyme with their conclusions, interpret the great heart of God, not by their own hearts, but by their intellects. Then, postponing the obedience that alone can give power to the understanding, they press upon men's minds their own low interpretations, instead of by their own example impressing the doing of that will upon their hearts.
Much like what that person is doing in the quotes you gave.

I just like to debate, I like to see people think, I like to learn and furthermore I love truth. It sounds like to me someone is afraid of truth
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:37 AM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,408,544 times
Reputation: 371
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fundamentalist View Post
Much like what that person is doing in the quotes you gave.

I just like to debate, I like to see people think, I like to learn and furthermore I love truth. It sounds like to me someone is afraid of truth
Yep, for sure.

The Truth

The Truth HERE
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Old 06-16-2009, 09:52 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,537,759 times
Reputation: 4461
I can't help but see the purging that we ourselves go through daily, and see God's hand in it - the God that is described as a consuming fire. Perhaps I'm too "consumed" with this, but dying to the flesh is such an integral part of following Christ and becoming a new creature, that I see all our refining as good and necessary.

If we say God is perfect in balancing all His "attributes", we get this picture of Him in a yoga position - that's not what it's about. Seriously, each article of emotion proves what is His nature - Holy, Righteous, and Good; and all those motivate His creature to be like Him.

Thanks Fundy for a stimulating thread.
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Old 06-16-2009, 10:05 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 12,437,896 times
Reputation: 746
Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
Yep, for sure.

The Truth

The Truth HERE
Well come on then. Critique my firend so we can get this started
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Old 06-16-2009, 10:35 AM
 
1,686 posts, read 2,408,544 times
Reputation: 371
Many moons ago, on another planet, was a guy whose first name is Old. This is what the Old "saint" once told me....you post and I will tell you whether it is right or wrong. Of course, Birdbrain was always wrong and Old ?, was always right. Old is still always right, & poor Birdbrain continues to be always wrong.

With that in mind what did you say?

Quote:
Well come on then. Critique my firend so we can get this started
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