Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-18-2009, 04:32 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,482,756 times
Reputation: 289

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Amen, jeapostle. I couldn't agree with you more! I'm willing to consider just about any position as long as irrefutable evidence is offered me. I was a hardcore pre-tribber for over 35 years until I decided to do a thorough investigation. "Study to show thyself approved". The evidence laid side by side was uncontestable: pre-tribulationism was not a sound doctrine. But I didn't arrive at that POV until I saw much of the arguments against it in their original Greek texts. Scofield has sabotaged the Bible, as many wolves-in-sheep's-clothes translators have done to advance their personal theological agendas.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-18-2009, 04:34 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,482,756 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
thrillobyte, if you studied to show yourself approved you would know that by correctly cutting or rightly dividing that the saints of the Jews go through the great tribulation and the saints of the nations do not.
Respectfully, Eusebius, if you would simply present the Scriptures that clearly support your beliefs (please, not just a list of disjointed verses), we could better communicate with you. Actual Scripture study is the only way to get at truth!

Preterist
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2009, 04:40 PM
 
Location: Prepperland
18,868 posts, read 14,052,061 times
Reputation: 16560
... and let us not forget the heavenly hand grenade of Ezekiel 18:13 KJV...
Ezekiel 18:13 Hath given forth upon usury, and hath taken increase: shall he then live? he shall not live: he hath done all these abominations; he shall surely die; his blood shall be upon him.
Do you agree that (a) usury is an abomination, and (b) usurers shall surely die, their blood (blame) be upon them? (FYI - usury is not excessive interest, but ANY interest, in money, for the use of money. Almost all religions denounce usury. Aristotle condemned it as the worst way to rob mankind.)
Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou has not strawed: And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine. His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sow not, and gather where I have not strawed: Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
[Note: This parable is routinely misinterpreted, and devoid of reference to the evils of usury. However, based on Ezekiel's condemnation [18:13], it would be absurd for God to condemn usury and promote it. Ergo, the "hard man" (Lord) cannot be a reference to God. Also note that this "hard man" reaps and gathers other people's property (thief). The third servant was afraid to engage in usury, a capital offense.]
John 2:14 And found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
[Note: Exchangers = Changers of money = Usurers. The sole report of violent behavior by Jesus the Christ is when he whips the usurers out of the temple.]

One can safely conclude that anyone engaged in usury cannot claim to be in good standing in any religion that prohibits same.

Coincidentally, no instrumentality of the Federal Reserve will allow an unnumbered American to open an interest bearing personal account.
Bless their hearts...

Now who is really going to heaven?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2009, 04:52 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,482,756 times
Reputation: 289
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blueberry View Post
So, does this mean Christian love includes ridiculing sincere believers and calling them out by name? Does it include calling them indoctrinated, hucksters, dishonest, deflectors, pathologically fearful, terrified, people with tunnel vision, get-rich-quickers, meal tickets, suckers, addicts, unwilling to confront reality, easily crushed, and psychologically unstable? Does it include hinting throughout the thread that pre-tribbers are ignorant?

Perhaps you're not getting the answers you desire because it appears you have no interest in discussing the topic honestly and with respect yourself. I haven't followed all your threads or read all of the responses, but I've seen enough to know that you misrepresent the pre-tribulation viewpoint and mindset. I'm insulted, and I don't even consider myself pre-trib.

In your other thread, you "proved" that a pre-tribulation rapture is impossible because the dates don't line up for a 2015 second coming of Christ. I don't know a single pre-tribber in real life who is even aware of the 2015 scenario. A few are starting to speculate about 2012 because it has gotten so much attention in the secular media. The 2015 date isn't the only scenario, either. Some pre-tribbers have for years looked at 2017, but you don't mention that because you won't be able to refute it yet. In fact, most pre-tribbers refuse to speculate on any kind of date, so your whole argument was a straw man that you knew you could easily refute. It makes you look like a genius and others look like idiots. That's not honesty, it's not rational, and it certainly isn't good logic. That's chicanery of the type you so easily ridicule in your OP.

Most pre-tribbers I know easily admit they'll change their stance when they see certain events take place or if they have good reason to believe they might. For some, the rise of the likely Anti-Christ is a definite deal breaker; others think they'll never see him, though, because they'll be "out of here". Others look for the Gog-Magog war or the Mark of the Beast. Some claim they'll change their minds if two witnesses come on the scene. Others say a preponderance of current events might get them to change their mind. In fact, I've known quite a few former pre-tribbers change their minds because of current events.

If you hang out on the prophecy boards as much as you claim, you should be aware of the above. So what is your real reason for starting these threads? From my point of view, it appears your intent is to be divisive because you're certainly not being honest.
Blueberry: Why are there all these different perspectives among dispensationalists on these "future" events? Maybe doing some actual Bible study instead of reading the newspaper and reading Hal Lindsey might help. I am not saying that is what you are doing, but as a recovering dispensationalist who was steeped in that doctrine, I found that most of my dispy friends did not know what the Bible teaches about these things. They merely parroted what the someone else SAID the Bible teaches.

They have been taught, as I was, to rip verses out of context, seam them together, and create a doctrine from them. Very few of the many I have known (and I was one of them) could pick up their Bibles and logically and exegetically give a clear presentation of their positions. Preterists, by and large, have studied themselves out of dispensationalism and tend to appeal to Scripture in its historical setting and within its audience relevance!

Sincerely, Preterist
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2009, 06:12 PM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,309 posts, read 6,416,568 times
Reputation: 951
To LIMIT God to a PARTICULAR generation...........how disrespectful, and puffed up..........me, me, me, my, my, my, I, I, I! What I interpret, what I understand, what I want Him to be, when I want Him to be, How I want Him to sound and what I want Him to say!

How about hearing, believing and obeying what He says and that it is well with your souls? To know and believe He is God Almighty and all power belongs to Him? And that If He says He's COMING AGAIN, SO SHALL IT BE?


That He is GOD ALL BY HIMSELF and whether you believe it or NOT, that would'nt change HIS nature, His nature being TRUTH!! SO, if He said it, it is so. That HE CANNOT lie...............................FINAL ANSWER!!!


Behold, He cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see Him and they also which pierced Him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of Him. Even so. Amen (Revelation 1:7)


THEY ALSO, yes, that PARTICULAR GENERATION and they also, they also!!!!!! I plan on being included in the "they", I don't know about YOU, but we all have our assignments, so..............carry on!! (emphasis added mine).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2009, 07:47 PM
 
18,193 posts, read 16,788,691 times
Reputation: 7424
Blueberry opined:
Quote:
Perhaps you're not getting the answers you desire because it appears you have no interest in discussing the topic honestly and with respect yourself. I haven't followed all your threads or read all of the responses, but I've seen enough to know that you misrepresent the pre-tribulation viewpoint and mindset. I'm insulted, and I don't even consider myself pre-trib.
Thrillobyte countered:
Quote:
ooof! Where to start???????? Blueberry, are you really interested in engaging in a friendly little debate with me? No long post filled w/ cut and pastes, just short exchanges as we tackle the issues. Up for it? I am.
I guess Blueberry wasn't interested in an open, friendly discussion of the rapture. Well, there you have it, folks--the "typical" response of a pre-tribber when invited to engage the issue, which is--NO response! Why am I not surprised?!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-18-2009, 11:33 PM
 
4,901 posts, read 8,703,707 times
Reputation: 7117
I fellowship at a Baptist church (where the "rapture" is commonly taught), but I do not believe in a "secret" rapture. I believe in the second coming of Jesus. I'm afraid that a lot of Christians who are looking to get out of here before any serious trouble comes to pass are in for a shock.

From what I've (quickly) read about preterism, though, I don't go along with that, either.

But I do know that when Jesus comes for his bride, He's coming for me. I really don't care when He does it, just that He does it! And if persecution comes in my lifetime, I'm not going to be surprised.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2009, 12:24 AM
 
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,381,095 times
Reputation: 3538
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I guess Blueberry wasn't interested in an open, friendly discussion of the rapture. Well, there you have it, folks--the "typical" response of a pre-tribber when invited to engage the issue, which is--NO response! Why am I not surprised?!
What part of being busy do you not understand? I don't live on the boards, and I'm going to be extremely busy for the next week. I had to meet a plane, get people settled, prepare for and attend a potluck, work on tomorrow's breakfast, feed and play with the dogs, do some laundry, and a whole host of other things.

I'd say the "typical" response here is you misrepresenting people . . . again! Did you happen to read my comment that I don't consider myself a pre-tribber? You're barking up the wrong tree. I do, however, visit various rapture boards because some of those people are at least looking at current events and often have insight or links to resources I find interesting.

I don't engage in fruitless debates, but I might make an occasional comment if I feel it is pertinent. Prophecy is a very in-depth topic, and I don't believe a board of this nature will do any of the positions much justice. I don't believe prophecy is a topic any one of us can say with 100% accuracy that we know it all; right now, we look through a glass darkly. Quite frankly, the best way for people to begin to understand prophecy is to read the Bible, especially the typical prophetic books, several times. Then, they may want to read a few books or do an internet search for areas of interest.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2009, 02:32 AM
 
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,381,095 times
Reputation: 3538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
Maybe doing some actual Bible study instead of reading the newspaper and reading Hal Lindsey might help.
I find it interesting that someone who is convinced of his own interpretation usually assumes the person who disagrees with him hasn't done any pertinent study. That's not just you, Preterist, but anyone with strongly held beliefs, especially beliefs that aren't in the mainstream, whether it be religion, education, politics, etc. Belittling others doesn't make one right; it just makes him/her arrogant. That's not necessarily directed at you, Preterist; it's just the tone I've noticed in most of the highly debated threads with entrenched sides.

It's also interesting in the Christian realm that the person who is not in the mainstream often claims superior knowledge, usually based on an understanding of Greek or Hebrew. That person totally discounts the possibility of a Sovereign God who is able to ensure His Word is accurately or adequately preserved and translated so the common man can read it and understand it for himself. Then the person with superior understanding claims others have not read their Bibles with discernment. Of course, only the enlightened know their history; let's not forget he/she picks and chooses the history just as he/she often picks and chooses Scriptures. It's easy to recognize in someone else, but not in one's self. Sometimes, the special knowledge comes from the heart or some other "supernatural" experience. Finally, let's not forget that the person who has seen the light finds it difficult to agree to disagree, but insists upon enlightening others at every opportunity even though the topic has been beaten to death. No answer will ever satisfy the enlightened, so endless and fruitless debates are raised ad nauseam.

Quote:
I am not saying that is what you are doing
That's good because I've read a Hal Lindsey book exactly once in my life--about 30 years ago--and I've read his column perhaps a handful of times over the past ten years because I was interested in what he had to say about a particular current event. I have two Chuck Missler books--one on aliens and one giving a brief overview of the books of the Bible. I have two textbooks on prophecy that I haven't read since college. I do have several books on biblical feasts because I wanted a deeper understanding of those holy days, plus I have a few books on more unusual topics like astronomy, time, and the cohesiveness of the Bible. The only pre-trib teaching I received at church was about 30 years ago--most pastors are afraid to touch prophecy.

I get my information from a wide variety of sources, newspapers included. I've been interested in prophecy for about a dozen years, and I've read up on just about any flavor you might care to mention, plus a few viewpoints that can't be pigeonholed in any category. I, myself, cannot be pigeonholed because I can actually understand where pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, pre-wrath, preterist, and other viewpoints can be supported biblically, some better than others (in my opinion). I can even see multiple raptures in Revelation, and I was surprised to later discover that some people think there will be more than one Rapture! I think each of the popular prophecy positions has information that helps one to understand the Bible. Actually, the most compelling argument I've read showed how all the timelines have already been met (not in the preterist way, though) and the seals have been opened throughout history, so the only thing left to occur was the Second Coming, millennial kingdom, and a war or two--in other words, there probably wouldn't be 3 1/2 years or 7 years after the Rapture. Wouldn't that turn most of the current views on their heads?!

Basically, I'm pretty open-minded when it comes to prophecy. Since I think prophecy is best understood in hindsight, I haven't had the inclination to study any one view in great depth but I have studied them. I like to keep an eye on what all the different groups are saying because I think each can add to my arsenal of knowledge. I find the pre-trib group to be the best at trying to discern the times in which we live, so I probably spend more time with that group because it leads me to interesting news articles on events, places, and world leaders.

I'll admit, Preterist, that I've pretty much rejected your viewpoint because I don't think it is supported by the whole canon of Scripture and to "know" that Jesus returned prior to AD70 is a huge leap of faith I'm not willing to make. Furthermore, you state as fact that Revelation was written before AD70, neglecting to mention that many (most?) Bible scholars disagree with you. The fact is, no one can say with certainty when it was written. Your viewpoint pretty much insists that the church replaced Israel, negating all the promises God gave to the Patriarchs and to the nation itself. If God's covenant with them can be replaced, then His covenant with me can be replaced, too. Frankly, I don't see any Scriptural evidence to support the idea of God going back on His promises. In fact, the Bible says that God cannot lie, which many of his everlasting decrees would become if replacement theology were correct.

Quote:
Why are there all these different perspectives among dispensationalists on these "future" events?
Mostly, I think it has something to do with looking through a glass darkly. As I said earlier, I think prophecy is best understood in hindsight. I also think God has sealed up understanding until the time of the end. Since many views can be supported biblically, it's not surprising there would be different interpretations. I don't think any of us will know for sure how things will play out until God makes it crystal clear. In the meantime, I'm willing to agree to disagree, and I'll keep spreading a wide net for information regarding prophecy.

I will admit that many people simply don't study for themselves and spout what others have said. However, I get pretty tired hearing that argument used whenever two parties are in disagreement, and I really don't like when opposing arguments are deliberately misrepresented and/or ridiculed. I also get extremely frustrated with Christians shooting at each other over the things they can't prove. There's nothing wrong with an honest, vibrant, even heated discussion. It could be a case of iron sharpening iron. Sadly, that's not what I see happening in this forum, which is why I rarely take part in the debates even if I have something pertinent to say. I won't waste my time talking to a brick wall.

We must admit, however, that most of these positions have arisen out of a desire to understand Scripture. If one were to go to websites of each group, he would likely find compelling and biblical arguments in favor of the position. Many proponents have done extensive research--biblical, linguistic, and historical/cultural. To expect each and every follower to do the same is asking them to reinvent the wheel. It's generally sufficient to "pick sides" based upon whom one thinks has the best argument. To indicate they do so out of ignorance is insulting.

Quite frankly, I'm not usually willing to invest hundreds of hours or years of study into a topic that I consider a "minor" of theology. I'm certainly not willing to waste time debating it. I have spent hundreds of hours regarding prophecy because I think it is pertinent to the time in which we live, but I understand that others either don't have that amount of time or find better ways of spending it because they, too, consider it a "minor" and prefer to concentrate their efforts elsewhere.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-19-2009, 02:45 AM
 
Location: land of quail, bunnies, and red tail hawks
1,513 posts, read 3,381,095 times
Reputation: 3538
Thrillobyte,

Let me remind you of my first paragraph in post # 11:

Quote:
So, does this mean Christian love includes ridiculing sincere believers and calling them out by name? Does it include calling them indoctrinated, hucksters, dishonest, deflectors, pathologically fearful, terrified, people with tunnel vision, get-rich-quickers, meal tickets, suckers, addicts, unwilling to confront reality, easily crushed, and psychologically unstable? Does it include hinting throughout the thread that pre-tribbers are ignorant?
Can you give me a compelling reason to enter into a debate with you when you behave in such a way?

It sounds to me like your mind is made up. I prefer not to waste my time. Besides that, there are a couple of verses in Proverbs 26 that I use as a guideline for entering discussions.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top