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Old 06-19-2009, 11:54 PM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
Hi, I can't stay on long, but I do need to ask where the willing part is coming from. I have heard plenty of universalists use that term when referring to being subjected to God and my Bible makes no mention of that anywhere. According to my Bible, the willing ones are believers and the unrepentant are the ones who may obey, but reluctantly. Hopefully, you can help me figure this out. Look forward to hearing from you.

Hi Nero, these scriptures and others tell me that it is a voluntary subjection/submission.

Colossians 1:15-20
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

We are the ones that are to be reconciled to Him and He will bring this about. Reconciliation involves a restoration of a relationship that has been disturbed. He will reconcile all to Himself, and just as we believer today came to Him willingly, all will come to Him willingly.



Psalms 22:
27. All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28. For the kingdom is the LORD'S
And He rules over the nations.
29. All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive



Psalms 66
4. "All the earth will worship You,
And will sing praises to You;
They will sing praises to Your name." Selah



Isaiah 45:22-25
"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23. "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24. "They will say of Me, `Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25. "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory."

Shared from another thread:



Has put" = hupotasso=
To arrange under/ to subordinate.
To subject/ put in subjection.
To subject to one's self/ to obey.
To submit to one's control.
To yield to one's admonition and advice.
To obey/ to be subject.
Hupotasso is a Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader".
In non-military use, it was "a volunatary attitude of giving in and cooperation.
Hupotasso= Hupo (under) + tasso (to arrange/ to arrange under)
Hupotasso is usually translated as "be subject or "submit". But be subject implies involuntary action, and submit does not include the idea of mutual persuasion as at Eph. 5:21.
Hupotasso never means mandatory submission by any being. Jesus Christ voluntarily submits (hupotasso) Himself to the Father that the Father may be all in all.
Hupotasso Used In Two Primary Senses
1. God arranging/ placing under.
2. Human beings voluntarily arranging or placing themselves under the Lord.
Hupotasso Rooted In Hupotage
Hupotage=
Hupo= under
Tage= (noun form of tasso)= arrangement/ arrangement under.
A person's voluntary placement of himself under someone.

Quote:
For Has has put (hupotasso) all things under His feet...And when all things shall be subdued (hupotasso) unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject (hupotasso) unto Him that put all things (hupotasso) under Him, that God may be all in all (pas in pas).

another link

Voluntary Acclamation (http://www.gtft.org/Library/dalmus/UnforcedAcclamation.htm - broken link)



Take care and God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-20-2009 at 12:21 AM..
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:00 AM
 
3,580 posts, read 456,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Perhaps you are right in regards to the first paragraph; however, one thing I have noticed is that the standard universalists doctrine speaks of eventual restoration of all people to God. If one looks at the gnostic text referred to as the "Apocalypse according to Peter" this very concept is incorporated, yet it was instead replaced by the early church leaders who felt that the book of Revelations was to be incorporated into the official canon. My question is this: if the Bible is the inerrant word of God, why did the early church fathers choose Revelations over Peter's writings when the only major difference between the two was the eventual restoration concept found in Peter's gospel? I know this doesn't have much to do with theological debate, but it does raise a few questions that would easily fit into our discussion. Look forward to hearing from you.
Nero,

I have not read the "Apocalypse according to Peter"

Do you have a link where I could see it? The only thing I could find is this but it is not like Revelation at all Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 06-20-2009, 12:05 AM
 
3,580 posts, read 456,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beloved57 View Post
Your right and your wrong.. You see, if you really undestood that only the elect of God stood and fell in Adam alone, then you would be correct to say yes to universal atonement, because Adam in the beginning represented all the Sons of God[elect] in their natural standing before God..hence he was called The Son of God lk 3:

38Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

And so all who were in Adam and sinned in Him, yes has been reconciled to God, God not imputing their tresspasses unto them as stated in 2 cor 5:

19To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

So reconciltation , which is a facet of salvation is Universal in its scope and application by the Triune God..

But , there are some exceptions, and that is, those who are the children, offspring, or descendants of the Serpent..for remember God stated after the fall of the couple, adam and eve..He stated specifically to the Serpent , who is the devil this:


14And the LORD God said unto the serpent [Satan], Because thou hast done this,[cause the Fall and sin of His children] thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life: 15And I will put enmity between thee[Satan] and the woman, and between thy[Satan] seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Now, this is very instructive, because we find out information otherwise we would not know, and that is Satan has a seed, a offspring in Him, Just like Adam had a offspring or seed in Him..

But the seed or offspring of satan, will not escape eternal damnation, for there is no reconciliation for satan nor His seed..

Jesus tells them, or some of them, this:

32Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33Ye serpents[ like in the garden gen 3], ye generation [seed] of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

So, yes, there is universal reconciliation, but not for those whom God deems as the seed of the serpent..
HMM - Serpent seed doctrine - have read some of the fruit of that and its not nice - can get very racist and nasty - ick
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Old 06-20-2009, 01:25 AM
 
352 posts, read 476,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
Nero,

I have not read the "Apocalypse according to Peter"

Do you have a link where I could see it? The only thing I could find is this but it is not like Revelation at all Gnostic Apocalypse of Peter - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Here is a link; it is a pretty decent site. Be warned; the reading is around 50 pages

The Apocalypse of Peter

Hint: if you move to the halfway mark, you will be able to get closer to the main focus of the text and its universalist teachings. Hope it helps
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Old 06-20-2009, 03:31 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,710,052 times
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just a personal question, what meaning have the apocrypha on this subject? there are apocryphal writings teaching everlasting torment, annihilation and universalism as far as I know, as we find all possible views among the apocrypha and among the earlier churchfathers, what does this contribute to our discussion?

a second question, does the term 'gehenna' appear in the Apocalypse of Peter?
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Old 06-20-2009, 09:29 AM
 
352 posts, read 476,639 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
just a personal question, what meaning have the apocrypha on this subject? there are apocryphal writings teaching everlasting torment, annihilation and universalism as far as I know, as we find all possible views among the apocrypha and among the earlier churchfathers, what does this contribute to our discussion?

a second question, does the term 'gehenna' appear in the Apocalypse of Peter?
The Apocalypse of Peter was one of the most highly disputed text in the early years of the church as the church leaders were trying to determine which books belonged to the official canon of the Bible. Obviously, a great deal of the other apocryphal books carried theological concepts that were not capable of being corroborated with the other books of the Bible. Yet, Peter was one of the exceptions. Ultimately, Revelations won, but the sheer fact that the early fathers had to debate for so long in regard to this book means that they felt it carried some theological significance. If this is true, then what parts of the text did they feel were theologically sound? What parts of the text led them to go with Revelations? Was it the concept of eventual restoration, was the certain forms of wrath God showed etc etc? Determining this may give us a hint as to what were early perceptions of universalism. I know it is a long shot, but any lead would help right?

In regards to the second question, I am honestly unsure; I haven't performed an in depth analysis of the text, I am only aware of its history and what I have read in the english translation. But that it is a good question nonetheless.
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Old 06-20-2009, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,710,052 times
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Quote:
If this is true, then what parts of the text did they feel were theologically sound? What parts of the text led them to go with Revelations? Was it the concept of eventual restoration, was the certain forms of wrath God showed etc etc? Determining this may give us a hint as to what were early perceptions of universalism. I know it is a long shot, but any lead would help right?
as far as I know, both the Sybilline oracles and the Apocalypse of Peter portrayed hell as a fiery torture chamber as we find it in the middle ages, after people suffered enough, they might have been released in this books, maybe the description of hell therein, wether endless or not, was of worth for many early Christian teachers.

I have heard of another writing ascribed to Peter, where men could torture their offenders in hell, taking personal vengeance (I've heard that was the reason why this book was removed), maybe this Apocalypse.

I wonder that such savage books teach a final restoration of the damned, I think the idea of hell among the early churchfathers might have been heavily influenced by Greek mythology (the fables about Tartarus). The Jews might have been influenced my Babylonian and Egypt myths in their later works, Enoch for example.

I suppose the ancient idea of universalism was that of people suffering in a realm like Tartarus, until they have paid enough for their transgressions and are restored (some belived in reincarnation and several lifes to be purified as far as I know).


personally I think "hell" is no scriptural term at all, I've never saw any source where "gehenna" appeared in Jewish writings prior to the New Testament.
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Old 06-20-2009, 10:22 AM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,825,686 times
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I read earlier, that God does all He can to get people to come to Him. If the majority is lost or if even one is lost to an eternal hell or eternal death, then God must not have very much power according to this view. God who has all power, is doing all that He can, yet He is not able to open their eyes, convince them of their need to come to Him. How can a creature's will be greater than it's Creator's will, so much greater than the Creator is unable to influence the creature's will to bring about what it best for the creature? How can the Creator who knows all hearts, be unable to reach all hearts? He fashioned them. Parents seek to influence their children's wills for good if they love the child, and if they do, we say that they have been successful. Why wouldn't our Heavenly Father do the same, and why would He not be successful in this seeing that He has all power and knows all hearts? I could never understand where this belief that God can only do what we allow Him to do, comes from. According to this belief, here we have God who is the Creator, all powerful, all wise, seeing beginning to end being unable to woo and win the creature who is lost, blinded, ignorant, and enslaved. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-20-2009 at 10:43 AM..
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Old 06-20-2009, 10:31 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,710,052 times
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I like this article, from a Jewish point of few, he makes good arguments concerning the laws of Torah I think.

http://www.nccg.org/mlt/sermons/3_065.html
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Old 06-20-2009, 10:38 AM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 2,020,536 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by meerkat2 View Post
HMM - Serpent seed doctrine - have read some of the fruit of that and its not nice - can get very racist and nasty - ick
The serpents seed is raceless, its a spiritual principal..for instance, cain was of that seed, 1 jn 3:


Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

So what race was cain ? None lol..

The fact of the matter is that satans prodigy is as widespread and diverse as the seed of the womans is..
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