Universal Reconciliation confirmed (Old Testament, vain, messianic, bless)

[meerkat2]

Originally Posted by HotinAZ

Oh, you think this was talking about physical death? Hmmm.

Not of the physical body, no.

[ShanaBrown]

Quote:

Eternity is an infinite time frame; never ceasing and constant.
this is why eternities of eternites would be a contradiction in itself, therefore it's ages of ages, though I admit I have no idea what is meant with this expression.

Hi, my understanding is that Ages are indefinite periods of time. They have a beginning and an end. Ages of the ages or age of the ages, means the greatest of the ages. The expression/terminology is found in various scriptures:

Notes:

While the Scriptures speak of many different ages, it also points to that climactic age of all ages.
We read the phrase "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever." [Hebrews 1:8]. These words "for ever and ever" come from the Greek which literally means TO THE AGE OF THE AGES. This is very familiar terminology in the Scripture. In the Tabernacle structure of the Old Testament, we read of the court, of the sanctuary, and then of the holiest of all, or the holy of holies. It was the most holy place, where the presence of God dwelt, and into which place the high priest went but once a year, and then always with the blood of the sacrifice which was a covering for their sins. Then we read of "the song of songs which is Solomon's." [Song of Solomon 1:1]. For Solomon "spake three thousand proverbs: and his songs were a thousand and five." [1 Kings 4:32]. But of all the songs which he wrote, there was one that was chief above them all, it was the song of songs. Thus all through the Scriptures, though obscured by many translators, we have this phrase "to the age of the ages." It points to that age which shall be the greatest of all ages, and which finds its type in the year of Jubilee. That glorious climax to His purpose and process of the ages, wherein He says, "Behold, I make ALL things new." And when He says, " ALL," is self-evident that there is nothing remaining in the universe which shall not be made new, else all is not all.

Author unknown
Ref:

Jesus - the Light of the World - Message Board - Yuku

God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

Hi Shana, thanks for the link. It will probably take a while for me to get through it, but from what I have read I find it a little bit daunting.

You're welcome, Nero. God bless.

[meerkat2]

Originally Posted by Nero777

I can see how some of these can be interpreted that way. However, some of the parables seem to focus more on the rapture. For instance, Matthew 13:24-30, 25:1-13,25:31-46, Luke 13:22-30, and John 5:24-30.

Matthew 22:1-14, Mark 12:1-12,Luke 13:1-5 possibly can be used to support your view, but I still think that these may be in reference to the second coming. What is your take on these passages.

Nero,

I too believe that there can be double meanings in the parables and what was said to the pharisees can also be applied to later times.

Any doctrine whether it be calvinism, armenianism, universalism, can be supported by cutting and pasting scripture (even stoning of adulterers can be supported by scripture but we know that it is murder and wrong) To me the view that "salvation is our choice based on believing in Christ before our physical death" is only half of the story, because we are told that Jesus is the saviour of all, especially of believers, but there is obviously a lot of people who never heard of Jesus, born and died before his birth, born and died during his lifetime and after his lifetime.

If believe and be saved from eternal torment is true then Jesus obviously did not die for them, because there is no way that they can claim salvation because they never heard of him.

How do you think this relates to final judgement 1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

I feel that why there are so many different opposing views on what salvation is - is because it is easy to just get half of the story and make a doctrine on that half.


To me it seems that Jesus was using images that people could relate to the world that they lived in and there are deeper meanings.

Some of the thoughts I have is that the purpose of a bridegroom and bride is not to live barren after they get married but to bring forth children. The chosen elect are to show mercy as they have been shown mercy by God while they were still sinners. It seems to me that traditional christianity cuts everything off at the bridegroom marrying his bride then living a barren life.

I know that you have heard this so many times but read 1 Cor 15:22-28 and study what it is saying.

In some of those passages the judgement is based on what you have done not on what you have believed, in other scripture it says believe and be saved, so we get the doctrine of believers = good and unbelievers = wicked.

But we also can see that there are believers who do not good things and there are unbelievers who are not evil people.

[meerkat2]

Originally Posted by Nero777

I can see how some of these can be interpreted that way. However, some of the parables seem to focus more on the rapture. For instance, Matthew 13:24-30, 25:1-13,25:31-46, Luke 13:22-30, and John 5:24-30.

Matthew 22:1-14, Mark 12:1-12,Luke 13:1-5 possibly can be used to support your view, but I still think that these may be in reference to the second coming. What is your take on these passages.

Mark 12:1 Is about the vinyard being Jews to be a light to the gentiles but they did not do as they were told, they beat and killed the prophets sent to them, the last one being the son (Jesus) the Lord of the vineyard comes in judgement (70AD) and gives the vinyard to others.

Luke 13:24-30 seems to cover the same ground as the above parable



Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is( risen up) Jesus raised from the dead , and hath shut to the door (on the Jews - blinded until the fulness of the gentiles be brought in ), and ye begin to stand without , and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
Luk 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth (Jews punished 7 times over for their sins refer Lev 26:18), when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out. (pharisees were told they were not the children of Abraham but were the children of the devil - deeds were evil)
Luk 13:29 And they shall come from the east, and from the west, and from the north, and from the south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. (relates to gentiles receiving the gospel)
Luk 13:30 And, behold, there are last which shall be first, and there are first which shall be last.

I also see parallels to the parable of the richman and lazarus

Luk 16:19 There was a certain rich man (Jewish nation), which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
Luk 16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus ( gentiles), which was laid at his gate, full of sores,
Luk 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
Luk 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
Luk 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
Luk 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Luk 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
Luk 16:28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
Luk 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
Luk 16:30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
Luk 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead. (Jesus rising from the dead)

Here is a website that gives an explanation of the parable Abraham's Bosom:The Parable;The Rich Man; Lazarus;The Deaths of the Rich Man and Lazarus;Abraham's Bosom; Lazarus In Abraham's Bosom; The Rich Man In Torment; The Great Gulf

[beloved57]

Here is God saving the children of the devil:

• Ephesians 2:1 And you [hath he quickened], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

No thats God saving His children, children of wrath and children of the devil arent the same..

Children of wrath is describing a behaviour, as in worthy of wrath, yes by nature, the elect are worthy of wrath as even others are, but they are not children of the devil..

[beloved57]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

Jud 1:9
"8Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

10But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves"




Here the devil is called a dignity whom the archangel Michael did not dare rail against in accusation. But here you are doing what even the archangel would not do.



Job 1:6
"Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them."




Satan is one of the sons of God ... that is benei elohim in Hebrew ... that same as found i gen. 6:2-4


Gen 6:2-4
"2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown."


Here we see the sons of God(benei elohim) are the fallen angels ...

What did you think? That Satan was his own father? This is another fundamental flaw, the idea that Satan is gods opposite equal.

this is not trut of Course, god created satsn to do and be who and what he is. It was not a mistake, it is by design.



Isaiah 54:16
"Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy."

Satan is a devil, you can call the devil a son of God if you want to, but mind you, thats blasphemy..

[beloved57]

Yes I did, and you did not address anything I wrote.

because you dont know what the heck you talking about..

[Ironmaw1776]

Originally Posted by beloved57

Satan is a devil, you can call the devil a son of God if you want to, but mind you, thats blasphemy..

The bible is full of blasphemy if fundamentalists are right about what they believe. Like 1 timothy 4:9-11

"This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe."

Jesus tells us to love our enemies, and to emulate him, yet you say God does not love his enemies(Satan). Who is the blasphemer? Me? You? or Jesus?

[beloved57]

Jesus tells us to love our enemies,

But not His enemies..The elect are not to Love Gods enemies..2 chron 19:

And Jehu the son of Hanani the seer went out to meet him, and said to king Jehoshaphat, Shouldest thou help the ungodly, and love them that hate the LORD?[NO] therefore is wrath upon thee from before the LORD.

The Spirit of christ through David, exclaims that He hates Gods enemies..ps 139:

20For they speak against thee wickedly, and thine enemies take thy name in vain.

21Do not I hate them, O LORD, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee? 22I hate them with perfect hatred: I count them mine enemies.

Its a terrible sin and great disrespect to God, to Love His enemies..