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Old 06-19-2009, 10:11 AM
 
352 posts, read 476,708 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Birdy_56 View Post
Are you aware of the fact that all enemies being subjected to the authority of the Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ by hupotasso, has the same willing subjection involved as that ultimately expressed by the Only Begotten to the Father?

Hupotasso=

"And when He shall subdue all things under His feet..."

Subdue= uJpotavssw =

To arrange under. To subordinate.

To subject, put in subjection.

To subject one's self. To obey.

To submit to one's control.

To yield to one's admonition or advice.

To obey/ be subject

A Greek military term meaning "to arrange [troop divisions] in a military fashion under the command of a leader". In non-military use, it was "a voluntary attitude of giving in, cooperating, assuming responsibility, and carrying a burden".



And when He shall cause everyone to obey Him and be subject unto Him.....





And when everyone shall be arranged under Him...



De hotan pas uJpotavssw autos tote uJpotavssw huios kai autos uJpotavssw uJpotavssw pas uJpotavssw autos hina Theos o pas en pas.
Yes, the term does seem to apply here. All will submit to God, but submission and obedience are two different things.

Hupotasso (Forerunner Commentary) :: Bible Tools

Furthermore, here are some other verses that may help. Hebrews 9:11-28 (particularly focus on 27), 2 Thessalonians 1, all the apocalyptic parables of Jesus Christ, and Revelation 20:10-15, which is to be corroborated with Revelation 21:7-8.

In the chapters of Revelation, the devil and his minions are cast down into the lake of fire for eternity (Rev 20:10); furthermore, those who are not found in the Lamb's book of Life are also thrown down into the lake (verses 13-15) which if corroborated with 21:7-8 seems to show that those who are "in Christ" will share in a special relationship with God where "I[God] will be his God, and he will be My son. But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolatry, and all liars--their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death"(7-8).

Basically, the devil and all the unrepentant sinners will enter the lake of fire (the second death) and will remain there, as indicated by verse 10. Furthermore, there are no verses (at least none that I can find after these) that seem to support the notion that God will restore those who were cast down into the lake.
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:12 AM
 
Location: On a road heaven bound !
10,290 posts, read 8,048,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Yes, the term does seem to apply here. All will submit to God, but submission and obedience are two different things.

Hupotasso (Forerunner Commentary) :: Bible Tools

Furthermore, here are some other verses that may help. Hebrews 9:11-28 (particularly focus on 27), 2 Thessalonians 1, all the apocalyptic parables of Jesus Christ, and Revelation 20:10-15, which is to be corroborated with Revelation 21:7-8.

In the chapters of Revelation, the devil and his minions are cast down into the lake of fire for eternity (Rev 20:10); furthermore, those who are not found in the Lamb's book of Life are also thrown down into the lake (verses 13-15) which if corroborated with 21:7-8 seems to show that those who are "in Christ" will share in a special relationship with God where "I[God] will be his God, and he will be My son. But the cowards, unbelievers, vile, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolatry, and all liars--their share will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death"(7-8).

Basically, the devil and all the unrepentant sinners will enter the lake of fire (the second death) and will remain there, as indicated by verse 10. Furthermore, there are no verses (at least none that I can find after these) that seem to support the notion that God will restore those who were cast down into the lake.
Amen!
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:17 AM
 
Location: NC
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Hi Nero, there are very many scriptures which speak to the eventual restoration of all to God. Here are a few:

Romans 8:18-22
18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19. For the anxious longing of the creation/creature waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20. For the creation/creature was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope21. that the creation/creature itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.


1 Corinthians 15:16-28
16. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;17. and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.18. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.19. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.20. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.21. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.23. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,24. then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.25. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.27. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.28. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Colossians 1:15-20
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Ephesians 1: 5-10
"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is the *summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens, and things upon the earth."

*summing up=anakephalaioomai=to gather together again in one, to reunite under one head as in Eph. 1:10 (Hebrew/Greek Key Word Study)

More HERE (post 294)

Also see post 291 on "subjection" It is the same word that is used of the Lord's subjection to the Father. It is done willingly and He was obedient to the Father.

There are words which have been translated as "eternal" and "everlasting" which do not mean eternal and everlasting, "aionios" being one of them. It means, "of or pertaining to an age." Rev. is not the last chapter in God's plan, although it may be the last book in many translations. Yes, all that is evil and sinful will be destroyed. There will come a time when Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father and when He subjects all to God so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15) and death, which is described as the last enemy, it to one day be made of no effect. God bless.



Isaiah 25:6-8
The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7. And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8. He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the LORD has spoken.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-19-2009 at 10:35 AM..
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:43 AM
 
352 posts, read 476,708 times
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Hello ShanaBrown, thanks for the post, but I do not have the time right now to address all the verses, but I would like to address the final comment before I leave.

You said that "Rev. is not the last chapter in God's plan, although it may be the last book in many translation. There will come a time when Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father and when He subjects all to God so that God may be all in all". I understand that you draw this supposition from the previously mentioned verses, but then I need to ask why does the writer of Revelation not make any mention of this in the book? It is clearly an important theological issue that would need to be addressed, yet the writer makes no claim afterwards. Furthermore, you are right about revelations being the last book, but not the last chapter. However, none of us can really make any supposition as to what would happen after the rapture because we honestly can't know what would happen.
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Old 06-19-2009, 10:49 AM
 
Location: NC
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Hi Nero, I don't know why the author did not make mention of it, Maybe this was not his focus, but I do believe that God's final plan was revealed to the apostle Paul . If you look at the chapter in Rev. 21, there are still people in positions of authority on the earth, kings of the earth, and the bondservants of the Lord are ruling with Jesus (Chapter 22), in Paul's revelation presented in the 1 Corin. chapter 15, all rule, power, and authority is to be abolished except for the Father's and the Son delivers the kingdom up to the Father. He is subject to the Father, not ruling with the Father as we see in the Rev. 22 chapter. God bless.


Rev. 221And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, bright as crystal, going forth out of the throne of God and of the Lamb:

2in the midst of its broad place, and of the river on this side and on that, [is] a tree of life, yielding twelve fruits, in each several month rendering its fruits, and the leaves of the tree [are] for the service of the nations;
3and any curse there shall not be any more, and the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him,
4and they shall see His face, and His name [is] upon their foreheads, 5and night shall not be there, and they have no need of a lamp and light of a sun, because the Lord God doth give them light, and they shall reign -- to the ages of the ages (Young's Literal Translation)
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:09 AM
 
Location: RV Park
7,543 posts, read 11,564,856 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Psalm 44:4-8
You are (our) my King, O God; command victories for Jacob. Through You we will push down our enemies; through Your name we will trample those who rise up against us. (We) I will not trust in (our) my bow, nor shall (our) my sword to save (us) me. But you have saved (us) me from our enemies, and put to shame those who hate us. In God we boast all day long, and praise Your name forever.
But His ways are higher than ours.

Quote:
Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.
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Old 06-19-2009, 11:57 AM
 
3,581 posts, read 456,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nero777 View Post
Hello ShanaBrown, thanks for the post, but I do not have the time right now to address all the verses, but I would like to address the final comment before I leave.

You said that "Rev. is not the last chapter in God's plan, although it may be the last book in many translation. There will come a time when Jesus delivers the kingdom to the Father and when He subjects all to God so that God may be all in all". I understand that you draw this supposition from the previously mentioned verses, but then I need to ask why does the writer of Revelation not make any mention of this in the book? It is clearly an important theological issue that would need to be addressed, yet the writer makes no claim afterwards. Furthermore, you are right about revelations being the last book, but not the last chapter. However, none of us can really make any supposition as to what would happen after the rapture because we honestly can't know what would happen.
Nero - I believe the reason why Revelation does not go past the ages into eternity is because John said that he was "In the Day of the Lord" the things that he was seeing and was told to write pertained to the "Day of the Lord" "the Lords Day" which is where everything is happening to bring about God being all in all. People seem to think it relates to John seeing the vision on Sunday, I have thought about that and don't believe that the Lords Day refers to Sunday. (Acts 2:20, 1 cor 1:8)

He does not mention eternity because he was being shown "The Day of the Lord" - thats why when in
Quote:
Rev 22:2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
after the lambs wife - the new jerusalem - the kings and priests have been resurrected and the murderers, liars etc have there part in the lake of fire - there is work to do for those kings and priests, (they don't get to sit around looking down from heaven commenting on what a shame all those deceived people are burning in hell and they are playing harps walking streets of gold) the nations are healed not eternally tormented.

Universalists do not believe that there is salvation outside of Jesus Christ, we do not believe that there are not consequences for sin, we just don't believe that the consequences of sin is eternal death. That was never promised. Also Adam brought death to all men, Christ will bring life to all men.
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:02 PM
 
Location: NC
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Excellent points, Meerkat. God bless.
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:04 PM
 
3,581 posts, read 456,716 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi Nero, I don't know why the author did not make mention of it, Maybe this was not his focus,
I think in Rev 1:10 the Lords Day being referred to is not saying John was seeing the vision on a Sunday it was referring to the fact that the vision was about "The Lords Day" The Day of the Lord"

If he meant Sunday he would have said the first day of the week.
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Old 06-19-2009, 12:06 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
But His ways are higher than ours.
WOW - Gods ways are so much better than our ways
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