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He will have all be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth. It was God's good pleasure to reconcile all to Himself.
Quote:
job 23:
13But he is in one mind, and who can turn him? and what his soul desireth, even that he doeth.
Ephesians 1: 5-10
"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is the *summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens, and things upon the earth."
*summing up=anakephalaioomai=to gather together again in one, to reunite under one head as in Eph. 1 (mid. voice) (Hebrew/Greek Key Word Study)
I admit God is the only one to choose to give the money. I used that example of showing "fairness"
double predestination is God deliberately makes people evil in order to send them to hell, that is not scriptural since we are all destined to hell from the beginning of birth, it is God who CHOOSES to save some by granting them repentance allowing them to turn back and seek righteousness.
The bible says, God's desire is for all to be saved. So why aren't all saved?
Fundy, you are talking in circles. I used to have respect for what you said because I admire anyone who believes in something and sticks to his guns. But you are being obstinate. You know damn well, that if you believe in predestination, then MUST believe that God chooses those that are damned either from the beginning or as a result of not being chosen. Just let the words slip from your lips. "I believe in double predestination." Say it....Say it......Say it........C'mon, give it a big hug.
Fundy, you are talking in circles. I used to have respect for what you said because I admire anyone who believes in something and sticks to his guns. But you are being obstinate. You know damn well, that if you believe in predestination, then MUST believe that God chooses those that are damned either from the beginning or as a result of not being chosen. Just let the words slip from your lips. "I believe in double predestination." Say it....Say it......Say it........C'mon, give it a big hug.
I am not talking in circles. You want me to say something that isn' there even though it makes sense to you, even logical but we can't rely on that, we can only rely on scripture and if there are gaps so be it but in fairness to answer your question if I believe in "double predestination"
I do not agree with how the doctrine of double predestination is worded therefore I could not in good conscience "hug it" BECAUSE IT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL but I do agree with a "double predestination that is based on scripture.
"the idea that some people have is that God appoints some people to heaven, some people to hell, and then He is as active in making those people on their way to hell evil, as He is active in making those people on their way to heaven good. And obviously, Scripture doesn't teach that or wouldn't affirm it. That's a doctrine I would call equal ultimacy. There's a -- there's a sense in which, if God chose whom He would save and before the foundation of the world, left everyone else, passed over them, left them in their sins, then their destiny is determined as well. It's determined. But it isn't by any active effort on God's part that they are made evil. It's their own fault."
Pastor Phil Johnson
Last edited by Fundamentalist; 06-27-2009 at 01:42 PM..
Free will has absolutely nothing to do with choice for salvation, show me that in scripture. until you can prove that your argument against predestination is moot.
Predestination is not love? which is better; you have a family of 30 in a non christian family and you are the only Christian where you are constantly witnessing and praying for their salvation and you might be able to get about 4 or how about with the doctrine of election out of 30 half are predestined for election. Which is more loving to you?
I am not talking in circles. You want me to say something that isn' there even though it makes sense to you, even logical but we can't rely on that, we can only rely on scripture and if there are gaps so be it but in fairness to answer your question if I believe in "double predestination"
I do not agree with how the doctrine of double predestination is worded therefore I could not in good conscience "hug it" BECAUSE IT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL but I do agree with a "double predestination that is based on scripture.
"the idea that some people have is that God appoints some people to heaven, some people to hell, and then He is as active in making those people on their way to hell evil, as He is active in making those people on their way to heaven good. And obviously, Scripture doesn't teach that or wouldn't affirm it. That's a doctrine I would call equal ultimacy. There's a -- there's a sense in which, if God chose whom He would save and before the foundation of the world, left everyone else, passed over them, left them in their sins, then their destiny is determined as well. It's determined. But it isn't by any active effort on God's part that they are made evil. It's their own fault."
Pastor Phil Johnson
Scenario:
I have a friend. I can see his future. I know that if I knock him out (without his choosing) and put him in a crack house he will freely choose to take drugs. Further, he would become addicted to drugs and, several years down the road, be charged with accidental man-slaughter (he was high whilst driving a car) and would be sentenced to 25 years in prison. I also know that, if I had NOT put him in the crack house, he would have gone on to live a perfectly happy life, growing up with a happy family and good career.
If I were to knock my friend out and put him in the crack house, is his demise not of my choosing? Of course it is! I am guilty of AND CHOSE his demise.
I have a friend. I can see his future. I know that if I knock him out (without his choosing) and put him in a crack house he will freely choose to take drugs. Further, he would become addicted to drugs and, several years down the road, be charged with accidental man-slaughter (he was high whilst driving a car) and would be sentenced to 25 years in prison. I also know that, if I had NOT put him in the crack house, he would have gone on to live a perfectly happy life, growing up with a happy family and good career.
If I were to knock my friend out and put him in the crack house, is his demise not of my choosing? Of course it is! I am guilty of AND CHOSE his demise.
***
Furthermore, do you accept that ONLY GOD can save, and it is not of man's choosing?
Scenario 2:
I have five friends and I put them all in a building. I light the building on fire knowing that everybody in the building will die unless I come and save them. I have a complete ability to save all of them and, due to all the smoke, my friends cannot possibly hope to get out of the building on their own. Despite having the ability to save all of them, I only choose to save two of them.
Did I not willfully choose to save ONLY two of my friends, but not my three other friends? I mean, I could blame it on them not being able to see. But I put them in the building. I made the fire. I caused the smoke. I made them blind. I LET THEM DIE. I am guilty of murder. Period.
Wow! that is alot but God did not take any active part in some one sinning. We are all born sinners, destined for hell. What separates you from a non believer? Did you choose God? Did you save yourself? and if you say that God chose you then why aren't your unbeliever friends saved as well?
I already know the answer. It is for His glory; that's it. God dying for man is a bi product of Him getting the glory. If dying for us doesn't give Him the glory then He wouldn't have done it.
Do you think God could ever have demonstrated His love to man any other way than dying for Him when he was at is worst ?.
Your answer to this will tell you why man fell and the whole purpose and plan of God through the ages
I did answer your question. I believe God could have demonstrated that if it gave Him the glory. He does what gives Him the glory.
You are under the mistaken notion that first and foremost I believe God died for us because He loved us, I believe that but that is a bi product. God does everything for His glory. He chose to have us, He doesn't need us; He has fulfillment in the Trinity but He came up with this preordained plan that He created man, man falls God comes in and saves man and the creation thus getting all the glory.
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I admit God is the only one to choose to give the money. I used that example of showing "fairness"
