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2) As far as everyone loving Him? Nope I don't see it in scripture.
Because you ignore scripture. I guess you should rip all the Psalms out of your bible.
Rev 15:4 Who will not fear you, O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.
Do you think there is someone in existence who will not worship the Lord with reverence and fear?
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Notice everyone swears allegiance. Why would those destined for "hell" swear allegiance? Everyone creature will worship the Lord in spirit and praise:
Rev 5:13 and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, `To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, [is] the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'
I realize you don't believe the Psalms are scripture, but this one confirms the above verses (and also confirms the Psalms are inspired):
Psalm 22:27 All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
Worship is an act of love. All will worship the Lord with fear and reverence. All will have the fear of the Lord, and this fear leads to wisdom:
Proverbs 9:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Proverbs 8:13 To fear the LORD is to hate evil;
I hate pride and arrogance,
evil behavior and perverse speech.
God will show his kindness to all who fear Him:
Psalm 103:11 For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great are His mercy and loving-kindness toward those who reverently and worshipfully fear Him.
Oops sorry that is a Psalm again. Anyway, what does God's kindness do?
Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
Fundy, do you not realize that God's kindness leads all people to repentance?
pfft.....You should talk....lol. I love that verse where everybody repents
Romans 2:4 Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?
Psalm 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways
and loving toward all he has made.
Psalm 103:11 For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great are His mercy and loving-kindness toward those who reverently and worshipfully fear Him.
God's loving kindness will lead ALL people to repent.
You are being ridiculous Fundamentalist. You claim Psalms are "poetry" therefore... what does that mean? We can't use Psalms to understand the nature of the Lord and what will happen when He comes?
What do you think repent means? It means to change. It means to turn to the Lord.
Everyone will turn to the Lord and worship Him when He returns - that can only happen if one repents, if one has a change of heart. And it is God's kindness who leads that change of heart. Understand?
Wow! that is alot but God did not take any active part in some one sinning. We are all born sinners, destined for hell. What separates you from a non believer? Did you choose God? Did you save yourself? and if you say that God chose you then why aren't your unbeliever friends saved as well?
Sorry the 2nd scenario was in there. I thought it was a pretty good scenario when I wrote it, and then I noticed a flaw, but apparently you got to it before I deleted that one lol
Although, honestly, you didn't answer my first scenario. Would you not agree that I would be guilty of my friend's demise in such a case as given in scenario 1?
Well, I would say that my non-believing friends are not saved yet, because it's not God's timing to save them yet (1 Cor 15:23-24, you'll have to look it up in, say, the Concordant Literal Translation, to get the clearest and most accurate translation PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS (1)). He will eventually though, as it is his will/wish to save all men (1 Timothy 2:4) and he does ALL of his pleasure (aka all that he wants/wishes) (Isaiah 46:9-11).
You are just making an assertion. You need to address my argument:
Again:
1. Sodom chose not to repent.
2. Sodom would have chosen to repent had they seen Christ's works.
God having foreknowlege could think to Himself... hmmmmm.... I can do (A) and Sodom will repent or I can do (B) and Sodom will not repent. God chose (B) and not (A). So predestination and choice are completely compatible.
You are just making an assertion. You need to address my argument:
Again:
1. Sodom chose not to repent.
2. Sodom would have chosen to repent had they seen Christ's works.
God having foreknowlege could think to Himself... hmmmmm.... I can do (A) and Sodom will repent or I can do (B) and Sodom will not repent. God chose (B) and not (A). So predestination and choice are completely compatible.
I am still not following. Yes, Sodom chose not to repent. That's a choice. So are you saying that Sodom was predestined for hell? Why would Sodom have automatically chosen to repent if he saw Christ's works. There were rabii's of Jesus's time that didn't by into Him then and they knew all about him. Heck, they conspired to get Him crucified. When Jesus said to eat his flesh and drink his blood, half the folks just walked away. (John 6) So your number 2 would be an incorrect assumption. Plenty of folks get taught Christ's word today and still reject him. Happens now, happened then. Choice...free will. Predestination? no.
Sorry the 2nd scenario was in there. I thought it was a pretty good scenario when I wrote it, and then I noticed a flaw, but apparently you got to it before I deleted that one lol
Although, honestly, you didn't answer my first scenario. Would you not agree that I would be guilty of my friend's demise in such a case as given in scenario 1?
Well, I would say that my non-believing friends are not saved yet, because it's not God's timing to save them yet (1 Cor 15:23-24, you'll have to look it up in, say, the Concordant Literal Translation, to get the clearest and most accurate translation PAUL TO THE CORINTHIANS (1)). He will eventually though, as it is his will/wish to save all men (1 Timothy 2:4) and he does ALL of his pleasure (aka all that he wants/wishes) (Isaiah 46:9-11).
God bless!
What was the other scenario you deleted ? can you DM it to me ?
To refute a Calvinist though you have to be pretty sharp because they are highly skilled in the doctrine of calvinsm, but there is plenty of chinks in their armor and plenty of hypocrisy.
Here's one All does not mean All , and the world means the elect and yet they profess to believe the word literally.
I also believe all they have is the written word and nothing else , they know nothing of the Spirit of God to quicken the word they claim to believe.
The whole thing is founded on doctrine rather than faith in His grace.
Before you start saying i am judging you Fundy i am having a huge swing at Calvinism not you.
I am still not following. Yes, Sodom chose not to repent. That's a choice. So are you saying that Sodom was predestined for hell?
No. God did not predestinate Sodom to an eternity of torment. God predestinated Sodom to be restored and their captivity removed. Ezekiel 16.
What I'm saying is that God could have brought them to repentence if He had chosen to but He chose not to.
Quote:
Why would Sodom have automatically chosen to repent if he saw Christ's works. There were rabii's of Jesus's time that didn't by into Him then and they knew all about him. Heck, they conspired to get Him crucified. When Jesus said to eat his flesh and drink his blood, half the folks just walked away. (John 6) So your number 2 would be an incorrect assumption. Plenty of folks get taught Christ's word today and still reject him. Happens now, happened then. Choice...free will. Predestination? no.
Because Christ said that Sodom would have remained to this day had they seen the same works. So they would have repented.
Matthew 11:21 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. 22 But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. 23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for ifthe mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. 24 But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee.
So God got to choose whether Sodom would repent and be spared or not. Sodom also got to choose whether they would repent and be spared or not.
You are right about those Jews that did see the works and not repent. I'm not saying everyone repents under the same circumstances as everyone else.
Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 06-27-2009 at 10:19 PM..
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