Predestination (churches, Israel, Jacob, symbolize)

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by juj

Where in the bible does it say that only the Bible is useful for righteousness and salvation? (this needs to be in a new or rehashed thread) I submit to you that you are only receiving part of the truth. It's like having a puzzle box of individual states of the United States and dumping them out only to find out your are missing about a quarter of the states and still having to make the final assembled puzzle look like the United States. A difficult job at best, impossible at worst.

Besides, I took your single predestination theory and extrapolated double predestination from what YOUR selected Bible verses and from your own knowledge. You need to believe in both or none. That is the reality for you.

Your kidding right? What else is there?

by the way you are one who says, Jesus meets us half way on the cross while He waits for us to choose. The dead can't move?

[juj]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Your kidding right? What else is there?

by the way you are one who says, Jesus meets us half way on the cross while He waits for us to choose. The dead can't move?

I do not believe in predestination. I am NOT arguing on it's behalf. I am stating that if you do believe in predestination as Calvanists do, then you MUST believe that God chooses both the saved and the condemned because God cannot choose one without choosing the other.

[DNick]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Your kidding right? What else is there?

by the way you are one who says, Jesus meets us half way on the cross while He waits for us to choose. The dead can't move?

Tradition.

And Juj, is simply, If you have something equals A or B, and it Doesn't NOT equal A, Then it MUST equal B. If God didn't not choose you for heaven. then by Default you go do Hell. They is NO other option.

You said earlier that it is Our choice. But believing in Predestination, you are taking our Choice out of the equation. It was choosen For us from the beginning. So If we didn't choose to be Choosen, then we didn't Choose to be Not Choosen.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by DNick

Tradition.

And Juj, is simply, If you have something equals A or B, and it Doesn't NOT equal A, Then it MUST equal B. If God didn't not choose you for heaven. then by Default you go do Hell. They is NO other option.

You said earlier that it is Our choice. But believing in Predestination, you are taking our Choice out of the equation. It was choosen For us from the beginning. So If we didn't choose to be Choosen, then we didn't Choose to be Not Choosen.

Tradition comes from scripture.

How can the dead have a choice? You are spiritually dead the bible says, How can the dead choose? How can you go against your own sinful nature; bound in sin and somehow on your own choose to love God when it is our nature to hate Him?

[juj]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Tradition comes from scripture.

How can the dead have a choice? You are spiritually dead the bible says, How can the dead choose? How can you go against your own sinful nature; bound in sin and somehow on your own choose to love God when it is our nature to hate Him?

That would not hold true for the Catholic Church. Come on, we've been over this. The Catholic Church predates the Bible almost 400 years. It was going along for 35 years before one line of new testament was written. Besides Paul clearly states in 2 Thess 2:15:

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

The New Testament books are mainly letters to satellite groups of Christianity to keep them from heresy and to keep everyone on the same page. So what was Paul meaning "by word of mouth?" He was talking about the traditions that were taught by Jesus and/or founded by Peter and the Apostles based on Jesus's teachings and were NOT in the writings. Otherwise Paul wouldn't have listed it separately. So from the beginning, Christians were practicing their faith with the help of traditions. Yes, it's true.

There are Sacred Traditions rich, old and holy and equally as devinely inspired as Sacred Scripture. However hard it may be, you need to walk away from Sola Scriptura." It is neither biblical nor true.

As far as sinful nature, We have a holy nature, too. Adam and Eve were created in God's image. Yes we carry the stain of original sin, but that does not mean we have no good in us. We are not only dung. So it is this good nature that can not only make choices, but make correct and holy choices.

[Fundamentalist]

Originally Posted by juj

That would not hold true for the Catholic Church. Come on, we've been over this. The Catholic Church predates the Bible almost 400 years. It was going along for 35 years before one line of new testament was written. Besides Paul clearly states in 2 Thess 2:15:

"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter."

The New Testament books are mainly letters to satellite groups of Christianity to keep them from heresy and to keep everyone on the same page. So what was Paul meaning "by word of mouth?" He was talking about the traditions that were taught by Jesus and/or founded by Peter and the Apostles based on Jesus's teachings and were NOT in the writings. Otherwise Paul wouldn't have listed it separately. So from the beginning, Christians were practicing their faith with the help of traditions. Yes, it's true.

There are Sacred Traditions rich, old and holy and equally as devinely inspired as Sacred Scripture. However hard it may be, you need to walk away from Sola Scriptura." It is neither biblical nor true.

That didn't answer my question but fine. You want me to walk away from "studying scripture using only scripture"?

[juj]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

That didn't answer my question but fine. You want me to walk away from "studying scripture using only scripture"?

Who said walk away from scripture? I didn't say that. DON'T DO THAT! I agree that with YOU that the Bible is devinely inspired and inerrant. But it is a very large subset of the truth. (The Trinity being one topic that didn't make it.) Because most Catholic traditions did make it into scripture and from other portions of scripture, became Catholic Traditions. The most important tradition and doctrine lies in the Eucharist (Communion). That tradition was practiced immediately by the faithful AND eventually found it's way into scripture. (John 6) Jesus did all the speaking in John 6. His commands were adhered to and Jesus's statements were eventually recorded.

It would seem to reason that all traditions were followed and most of them were eventually written down. And some traditions were started based on scripture after it was written. And some traditions were never written down. And not everything written down became a tradition.

So again, if you base your Christianity on Luther's "Sola Scriptura", you are getting exposed to much of the truth, but not all of it.

[beloved57]

He is clear He predestines those who go to heaven but He says nothing about predestining those who go to hell.

Thats because you dont understand scripture..Sure God predestines to hell, they are vessels of destruction, these are made by God to be punished for their sins Justly..

rom 9:

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Matt 25:

41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

God prepared hell for particular individuals as well as heavn for particular individuals..

All those whose names were not written in the lambs book of life before or from the foundation, those had been appointed to wrath from the foundation..

You just teach a unbiblical gospel, and must appaer before God shortly for it..

[beloved57]

Not only does the scripture present the Lord Jesus christ as the object of predestination, but Angels as well are the objects of predestination..This should be clear from matt 25:

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

So the good [elect] angels and bad [apostate] are predestinated..

Those that are blessed are those called elect angels 1 tim 5:


I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

These elect angels owe their preservation from apostacy and usefulness to God, to their being chosen in christ, and he as their head, though not from a redemptive standpoint, but do serve within the redemptive purpose..as attendants to the heirs of salvation heb 1:14

Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?

This is better read in the greek as not a future tense but a present tense, who are being the heirs of salvation..

Also col 1:


15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

heb 12:

22But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Note, the Angels are under Jesus christ headship creatively and not redemptively, though they do serve him in that purpose, and is the main purpose for their preservation and election..the redemptive purpose of God through Jesus christ..eph 3:

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:


10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

The non elect angels are rejected of God [by eternal plan and purpose], and remain in that condition [as well as their apostate counterparts men], being under chains of darkness [as men too] to be reserved to the Judgment of the great day.. Everlasting fire has been prepared for them, according to the determinate counsel and will of God, and as stated, the ungodly and reprobated men are reserved for judgment too..

2 pet 2:

4For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; cp matt 25:


41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

men 2 pet 3:

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. cp

2 pet 2:

9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Just as the apostate angels are being reserved for the day of judgment and their punishment, likewise the unjustified [non elect] men are being reserved [held in custody] unto the day of judgment to be punished..

[DNick]

Originally Posted by Fundamentalist

Tradition comes from scripture.

Actually Scripture came from Tradition.