Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Some of you know I have softened my position on the rapture and am no longer militant to the concept ever since discovering that Jesus did indeed make reference to a rapture-like event in His Olivet Discourse. In the verse, "Then shall two be in the field; one shall be taken and the other left.." the Greek word for taken is paralambanetai which denotes "to be received" as in received by God; the "left" in Matthew is afietai which according to Net Bible is "abandon--leave destitute". So it appears that those taken do participate in some kind of "catching up" by our Lord, while the other are left to face destitution as in.....the tribulation???? But I did and still do raise the following question: here we are June 21, 2009. Can we fit a 7-year tribulation into between now and 2015? Turns out we may not have to worry about that until 2010. As supernatural signs go, the tetrad (famous four blood red moons that occur on Passover and Tabernacles in 2014 and 2015) are on the order of Israel being declared a nation in 1947, thirty years exactly after General Allenby walked into Jerusalem. Fifty years later (Jubilee?) Israel captured Jerusalem. Fifty years later will be 2017, another Jubilee. Are the blood moons a fulfillment of Joel 2:31, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." and Matthew, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light ... And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:29-30) Is the sign of the appearance of the Son of Man in 2017? Do the blood moons appear in the last 3 1/2 years, the so-called "Great Tribulation? IS there really a 6000-year Divine Plan for man?
We are not to get caught up into date-setting, but rather understanding and discerning the season. Our job is to win the lost until the Father is ready to send Jesus back as a thief in the night, which will be His second appearance to rapture the Bride. His third appearance will be at the end of Daniel's 70th week -- the 7 years of tribulation.
Some of you know I have softened my position on the rapture and am no longer militant to the concept ever since discovering that Jesus did indeed make reference to a rapture-like event in His Olivet Discourse. In the verse, "Then shall two be in the field; one shall be taken and the other left.." the Greek word for taken is paralambanetai which denotes "to be received" as in received by God; the "left" in Matthew is afietai which according to Net Bible is "abandon--leave destitute". So it appears that those taken do participate in some kind of "catching up" by our Lord, while the other are left to face destitution as in.....the tribulation???? But I did and still do raise the following question: here we are June 21, 2009. Can we fit a 7-year tribulation into between now and 2015? Turns out we may not have to worry about that until 2010. As supernatural signs go, the tetrad (famous four blood red moons that occur on Passover and Tabernacles in 2014 and 2015) are on the order of Israel being declared a nation in 1947, thirty years exactly after General Allenby walked into Jerusalem. Fifty years later (Jubilee?) Israel captured Jerusalem. Fifty years later will be 2017, another Jubilee. Are the blood moons a fulfillment of Joel 2:31, "The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come." and Matthew, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light ... And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:29-30) Is the sign of the appearance of the Son of Man in 2017? Do the blood moons appear in the last 3 1/2 years, the so-called "Great Tribulation? IS there really a 6000-year Divine Plan for man?
Thrillobyte: I still don't know what this misguided and popular speculation concerning 2015 and 2017 has to do with Jesus' words which follow 24:29-30? Jesus clearly stated that all the things He just spoke about, including verses 29-30, were to take place in that very generation.
Jesus told those disciples right there with Him that they themselves were to recognize those signs of His coming as easily as they themselves recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the FIG tree and ALL the trees (Mat. 24:31-33; cf. Luke 21). They could not recognize the signs if they were not to be alive when they occurred? There is absolutely no way for futurists to explain away Jesus' use of "THIS generation." All of their explanations are totally inadequate and totally inconsistent with how Jesus always used that expression (20x).
The timing of the coming and the gathering in Matthew 24 which was to happen in that generation is the same time frame of John 14, 1 Corinthians 15, 1 Thessalonians 4, and 2 Thessalonians 1. Jesus was to return to those first-century disciples standing right there with Him, whether they were dead in Christ or still alive in Him, and He would receive them personally unto Himself (John 14). Paul and his contemporaries were to be changed in the twinkling of an eye at that same coming of Matthew 24 (1 Cor. 15); Paul and his contemporaries, those who were still alive, were to be caught up together with the dead in Christ (e.g. Paul himself) and be forever with the Lord in the "this" generation of Matthew 24; those very Thessalonians who were being persecuted in that pre-A. D. time frame were to be given rest when He appeared from heaven with His angels and brought judgment upon those very persecutors of their day (2 Thes. 1).
I believe very strongly in a "rapture," but it was for that generation and none other!
Well according to Sir Isaac Newton based upon his calculations using figures from the book of Daniel it's not going to happen no earlier than 2060. I would think you have plenty of time.
Well according to Sir Isaac Newton based upon his calculations using figures from the book of Daniel it's not going to happen no earlier than 2060. I would think you have plenty of time.
I think Newton did not have the benefit of computers which today can calculate the position of the planets back 200,000 years or to infinity, if need be. That's makes a huge difference in projecting out such dates, I'd guess.
I think Newton did not have the benefit of computers which today can calculate the position of the planets back 200,000 years or to infinity, if need be. That's makes a huge difference in projecting out such dates, I'd guess.
It's all in the interpretation and what you believe...
According to my calculations, it will be somewhere around 2017. Give or take a few years because of the calendar year discrepancy. I'm no date-setter, but the Bible clearly says that we can definitely know the season.
Here's a thread I started a while back about the millenial-day theory:
Thrillobyte: I still don't know what this misguided and popular speculation concerning 2015 and 2017 has to do with Jesus' words which follow 24:29-30?
Preterist, my whole premise at this point in time has to do with distinguishing the differences in the Greek words used by Jesus for "taken". Why did Jesus choose to use different connotations for "take", one positive, one negative (as I outlined in Matthew vs Luke thread)?? If Jesus was talking about 70 AD in both accounts He would have used the same Greek word for both narratives, true? Not that I am challenging you, but I rely on your expertise: if you can demonstrate that paralambanetai means other than to be received in a loving way, then I will have to rethink my position. But right now, it seems Jesus was NOT saying that those taken were to be carried away to destruction as Luke's version suggests, but were to be taken to a place of refreshment, delight....I don't know, other superlatives that mean well, maybe heaven. Per this latest discovery, Jesus appears to have been referring to an event other than 70 AD.
None of us knows an exact date! True? But can we not discern the season? He's only coming back as a thief in the night, for those who are NOT watchful. Blessings.
Heads up, our Redemption draweth nigh. The hour is late, it's late people.
Preterist, my whole premise at this point in time has to do with distinguishing the differences in the Greek words used by Jesus for "taken". Why did Jesus choose to use different connotations for "take", one positive, one negative (as I outlined in Matthew vs Luke thread)?? If Jesus was talking about 70 AD in both accounts He would have used the same Greek word for both narratives, true? Not that I am challenging you, but I rely on your expertise: if you can demonstrate that paralambanetai means other than to be received in a loving way, then I will have to rethink my position. But right now, it seems Jesus was NOT saying that those taken were to be carried away to destruction as Luke's version suggests, but were to be taken to a place of refreshment, delight....I don't know, other superlatives that mean well, maybe heaven. Per this latest discovery, Jesus appears to have been referring to an event other than 70 AD.
Hi, thrillobyte. I find Matthew 24 and Luke 17 to be parallel passages. Both events are compared to the time of Noah and the flood. In Matthew 24:39 the term used for "took away" is hren (pronounced "aren" with a long "a") and comes from the root word airo (pronounced iro with a long "i")--"to take away, remove." In the parallel reference to the days of Noah in Luke 17:27, the term used is "apolesen" and comes from the word apollemi--"to destroy." Since both Matthew 29:39 and Luke 17:27 concern the same end for those who were disobedient in the days of Noah, the terms have the same negative meaning. In other words, Luke's use of "to destroy" and Matthew's use of "to take away, remove" denote the same negative outcome. The ungodly of Noah's day were "taken away, destroyed" by the flood waters!
In Matthew 24:40 and 41 and Luke 17:34 and 35, the root words for both passages are the same. In Matthew 24:40 and 41 the form is paralambanetai. It is the third person singular present passive indicative of paralambano which means "to take to one's self, take along, or receive." In Luke 17:34 and 35 the form is paralefthesetai. It is the third person singular future passive indicative of paralambano. This is the same word found in John 14 where Jesus promised to receive (paralambano) those disciples unto Himself when He returned for them.
In both Matthew 24:40 and 41 and Luke 17:34 and 35 the root word for "left behind or passed over" is the same--afiemi. In Matthew 24:40 and 41 it is found in the third person singular present passive indicative form (afietai). In Luke 17:34 and 35 it is found in the third person singular future passive indicative form (afethesetai). Again, both uses are from the same word root--afiemi.
In summary, both Matthew and Luke describe the same event that was to take place "in that day" and "then." These time indicators point back to Jesus' previous words which place it in that generation. At His return during that generation, He would receive (paralambano) those who were His to Himself but would pass over or leave behind (afiemi) those who were not His! The words used to describe those who were taken away or destroyed (airo and apollemi) in the time of the flood are not the same as the word used to describe Christ's receiving of His own to Himself in A. D. 70.
Sorry, thrillobyte, but I guess I should have given this answer in your thread concerning Matthew 24 and Luke 17!
In Christ, Preterist
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
