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Old 06-23-2009, 10:35 AM
 
Location: NC
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Notes

Quote:
Now if God's punishments are limited, we can understand how this word should be used only fourteen times to define them. But if they are endless how can we explain the employment of this equivocal word only fourteen times in the entire New Testament? A doctrine that, if true, ought to crowd every sentence, frown in every line, only stated fourteen times, and that, too, by a word whose uniform meaning everywhere else is limited duration! The idea is preposterous. Such reticence is incredible. If the word denotes limited duration, the punishments threatened in the New Testament are like those that experience teaches follow transgression. But if it means endless, how can we account for the fact that neither Luke nor John records one instance of its use by the Savior, and Matthew but four, and Mark but two, and Paul employs it but twice in his ministry, while John and James in their epistles never allude to it? Such silence is an unanswerable refutation of all attempts to foist the meaning of endless into the word. "Everlasting fire" occurs only three times, "everlasting punishment" only once, and "eternal damnation" once only. Shall any one dare suppose that the New Testament reveals endless torment, and that out of one hundred and ninety-nine occurrences of the word aion it is applied to punishment so seldom, and that so many of those who wrote the New Testament never use the word at all? No. The New Testament usage agrees with the meaning in the Greek classics, and in the Old Testament. Does it not strike the candid mind as impossible that God should have concealed this doctrine for thousands of years, and that for forty centuries of revelation he continually employed to teach limited duration the identical word that he at length stretched into the signification of endless duration? The word means limited duration all through the Old Testament; it never had the meaning of endless duration among those who spoke the language, (as we have demonstrated,) but Jesus announced the doctrine of endless punishment, and selected as the Greek word to convey his meaning the very word that in the Classics and the Septuagint never contained any such thought, when there were several words in the copious Greek tongue that unequivocally conveyed the idea of interminable duration
JW Hanson

http://www.gtft.org/Library/hanson/Aion-Aionios.htm (broken link)


God bless
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:43 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 14,511,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Notes

JW Hanson

http://www.gtft.org/Library/hanson/Aion-Aionios.htm (broken link)


God bless
I have a question, why is it when universalist accuse us of being brain washed by "man made" doctrines yet when you guys post material, it is also from man?
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Germany
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you're right @ fundamentalist, basically you can trust nobody, whether he is a universalist or helds to any other doctrine, therefore you can also trust no scholar or bible translator, as you can make the bible almost say everything, you can't get around also to use your reason, now is double predestination reasonable - I guess not; just an example.

I examined the use of eis ton aióna in the Septuagint, it can in itself impossible mean, forever - to eternity, impossibly (I posted the paper, you can check it for yourself).

now the word aiónios is used both in the Septuagint and the NT in a limited sense, indisputably.

basically it is enough to defend universalism to prove aiónios did not always mean infinity, this is proven by the NT itself, there is no need to prove that it never had this meaning. A dictionary entry is no proof btw.

the argumentation either in favor or against universalism should not be stressed on this words.
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Old 06-23-2009, 10:59 AM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 2,379,648 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Mark 3: 29but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' (YLT)

God bless.

29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation

the word damnation is
krisis

sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment

So, in a respect, it is eternal Judgment..in that the Judgment issues into damnation, punishment..

punishment that never ceases..as in matt 25:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:00 AM
 
Location: NC
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Hi, I share information from people who have studied the languages of the scriptures and I share from other believers. There is difference between accepting what others say without studying for oneself , and sharing information and in seeing the obvious contradictions in translations which have incorrect translations of words which have influenced doctrine. God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-23-2009 at 11:23 AM..
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:07 AM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
Mark 3: 29but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' (YLT)
Notes:
Being condemned or damned does not mean everlasting punishment.

Quote:
The Greek word is "KRISIS," from which we get our English word "CRISIS."
The word in the truest sense means A TURNING POINT. For example, when a person's body is racked with fever, and its highest temperature is reached, this is called THE CRISIS -- IT IS THE TURNING POINT. Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says the primary meaning for the word is "A DECISION." The word "DAMNATION" is very misleading. TURNING POINT, DECISION, or JUDGMENT are words much closer to what KRISIS means. If we understand what "judgment" means, it is a good word to use; for judgment carries the thought of A DECISION FOR OR AGAINST, and with THE ACTION APPLIED INITIATING A TURNING POINT. When a judgment is in a person's favor, rewards are generally given due to their good works (promotions, raises, etc.).

Upon looking at the lack of evidence of an accused man, judgment can also come as an acquittal of his guilt. But when the situation constitutes it, judgment is levied against a person in the form of remedial punishment. This is the context that the word is most often used in the New Testament.

The other translators of the Bible commonly used JUDGMENT for the word KRISIS, depending on to what degree they were influenced by church dogma or how daring they might have been to stray from the "Authorized Version."
caps from reference.



Ref: E. Roach

beloved:
Quote:
The word aion also means:

aiōnios which means:
without end, never to cease, everlasting



Eternity has no beginning and no end. If aion means eternity or everlasting , there would be

a secret concealed from the eternities, the everlastings
the present wicked eternity, everlasting
the conclusion of the current eternity, everlasting
the oncoming eternities, everlastings


What does this mean????

(Correct translation is important)




Aionios is the adjective for aion and means of or relating to an age. An age is an indefinite period of time.

Ages have a beginning and they have an end. The scriptures refer to past ages, the present age, and ages to come. They cannot be eternal if they have a beginning and an end.

There was "a secret concealed from the aions" (ages) (past) (Eph.3:9)
There was "the preparation of the aions"(ages) (past) (Heb.11:3)
There is "the present wicked aion" (age)(present) (Gal.1:4)
There is "the conclusion of the current aion" (age) (present) (Matt 28:20)
There will be "the coming aion" (age)(future) (Luke 18:30)
There will be "the oncoming aions" (ages)(future) (Eph.2:7)




God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-23-2009 at 11:24 AM..
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:15 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 14,511,260 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
you can't get around also to use your reason, now is double predestination reasonable - I guess not; just an example.
Doesn't matter if it is reasonable, the question is, is it scriptural? I say no. I don't see it in scripture.
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Germany
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the older Greek manuscripts have aeonian sin in Mark 3:29

aióniou amartêmatos (aiwniou amarthmatoV)

But, whosoever shall revile against the Holy Spirit, hath no forgiveness, unto times age-abiding, - but is guilty of an age-abiding sin. (Rotherham)

But he that blasfemeth ayens the Hooli Goost, hath not remissioun in to with outen ende, but he schal be gilty of euerlastynge trespas. (Wycliffe)

1 Samuel 27:12 (Wycliffe)

Therfor Achis bileuyde to Dauid, and seide, Forsothe he wrouyte many yuelis ayens his puple Israel, therfor he schal be euerlastynge seruaunt to me.

everlasting obviously means at most for lifetime here, you can't build a doctrine on a verse that his mistranslated and following probably an ungenuine reading.
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:34 AM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 2,379,648 times
Reputation: 48
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Notes:
Being condemned or damned does not mean everlasting punishment.

caps from reference.



Ref: E. Roach

beloved:




Eternity has no beginning and no end. If aion means eternity or everlasting , there would be

a secret concealed from the eternities, the everlastings
the present wicked eternity, everlasting
the conclusion of the current eternity, everlasting
the oncoming eternities, everlastings


What does this mean????

(Correct translation is important)




Aionios is the adjective for aion and means of or relating to an age. An age is an indefinite period of time.

Ages have a beginning and they have an end. The scriptures refer to past ages, the present age, and ages to come. They cannot be eternal if they have a beginning and an end.

There was "a secret concealed from the aions" (ages) (past) (Eph.3:9)
There was "the preparation of the aions"(ages) (past) (Heb.11:3)
There is "the present wicked aion" (age)(present) (Gal.1:4)
There is "the conclusion of the current aion" (age) (present) (Matt 28:20)
There will be "the coming aion" (age)(future) (Luke 18:30)
There will be "the oncoming aions" (ages)(future) (Eph.2:7)




God bless.
29But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation

the word damnation is
krisis

sentence of condemnation, damnatory judgment, condemnation and punishment

So, in a respect, it is eternal Judgment..in that the Judgment issues into damnation, punishment..

punishment that never ceases..as in matt 25:

And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
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Old 06-23-2009, 11:37 AM
 
Location: NC
14,696 posts, read 17,026,769 times
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Hi, it ceases because all are to be reunited in Jesus Christ in the end Ephesians 1. Punishment has a higher purpose. God bless.

Ephesians 1: 5-10
"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens, and things upon the earth."

*summing up=anakephalaloomai= in the mid. voice to gather together again in one, to reunite under one head as in Eph. 1:10




Quote:
Tradition maintains that God’s judgment has no remedial purpose—it is eternal, and as a result, we can have no hope beyond death or hell. What mysteriously happens at death making it impossible for God to bring someone to repentance? Has He been strippedof His power? Where does Scripture declare His impotence in the face of death?


Hope Beyond Hell


Mark 3: 29but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness -- to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;' (YLT)

God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 06-23-2009 at 11:46 AM..
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