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Water baptism is not a requirement for salvation anyway ....
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Originally Posted by ShalomPeace
And which verse was it that the thief on the cross ignored that warranted him salvation by Jesus?
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Originally Posted by DaniMae1
Just to be safe be baptized both ways! Then you are SURE to avoid the pit of fire! No really, the church I used to go to said the Jesus name way was the RIGHT way. The other way was wrong and you were NOT saved if you were baptized that way. Isn't that ridiculous?
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Originally Posted by deerdog
I agree Dani just like churches that say if you weren't baptized in their church your not saved. I also agree with Shalom its not essential toward salvation but if you have truly became a christian then there is no reason not to get baptized and you should really want to anyways.
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Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn
I agree.
Think about that one for a minute. Had Jesus died yet? How do you know the thief had never been baptized? Couldn't Jesus forgive sins with a word while He was on the earth? I don't understand why people still don't get it.
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Originally Posted by kdbrich
How was the thief saved? Jesus hadn't died yet...so was it the atonement?
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Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn
How were others who died before Jesus' death saved?
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Originally Posted by kdbrich
By faith. Likewise, we are still saved by faith. Not baptism.
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Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn
You're entitled to your opinion.
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Originally Posted by ShalomPeace
Luke 23:39
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: 'Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!'
Luke 23:43
"Jesus answered him, 'I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.'
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Originally Posted by [B
ForHimByHim[/b]9536402]Why can't we simply pursue the understanding of the commandments of JESUS LORD, and involve ourselfs in obeying His commandments, instead of trying to tweek out the minimum salvation reqiurements?
We should live the faith with our whole heart, soul, mind, and strength.
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Originally Posted by kdbrich
If you have a difference of opinion, can you back it up from scripture?
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Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn
I never said the thief wasn't saved. We do not know if he was ever baptized, Jesus forgave sins with his Word while on earth, and Jesus had not died yet to bring the new covenant into existance. The thief was still under the old covenant, we are not. Big difference.
Absolutely! I'd like to say that I do not believe the water of baptism saves us, but Jesus' shed blood. I believe we come into contact with that shed blood when we are baptized (Rom 6:3). I also believe that in addition to faith, repenting, confessing, and being baptized, we must also remain faithful.
As for baptism though...
Let's go back to the day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:36-38) When the people asked, what must we do? Did Peter say, just have faith? No, he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."
Or how about all of these that talk about baptism...
Who is saved? Mark 16:16...He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
What saves us? I Peter 3:21...The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
How do we call on the name of the Lord? Acts 22:16...And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
How do we come into contact with Jesus' death, and walk in a new life? Romans 6:3-4...Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
How do we receive remission of sins? Acts 22:16...And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
See also Acts 2:38 above.
How do we join the one body of Christ? 1 Cor 12:12-13...For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
How do we put on Christ? Gal 3:27...For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Seems to me the Bible teaches that baptism is more than just a "show" for others.
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Originally Posted by DNick
I think I agree with everything you said........Kinda just skimmed. But I'm not saying (don't think you are either) that baptism alone saves us, There are other things needed, but you do NEED to be Baptized.
Side note, Do write that everytime Dawn, or do you have it written and saved in word, and you just bring up the topic, and copy and paste the verses when the subject comes up?
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Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn
I totally agree DNick, there is more to salvation than baptism. Also, I apologized to you on the thread where I was mistaken.
I have it in an email that I had sent someone, so I get it from there. I think I have posted it 3 times over the months, hope that's not against the rules.
I rarely ever bring up baptism, just because most know what I believe, and it usually turns into a serious debate, but if someone else brings it up, and says baptism is not necessary, I feel the need to show them verses that say it is.
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Originally Posted by kdbrich
Notice that the baptism clause isn't reiterated in the 2nd half of that? You're not necessarily damned if you "believeth not". It's assumed though, that if you believe, you are going to be baptized.
Again...notice how Peter re-phrases it? It's not the baptism--but the pledge of a "good conscience" toward God.
Again...it's the "calling on the name of the Lord" that saves...not the baptism.
Who is the "us" that Romans was written to? Notice it says "as we were baptized..."? Christians are baptized. This doesn't say you are saved by baptism.
again....it's the "calling on the name"
No mention of salvation here by baptism...
Again...it's assumed that the believers are baptized.
We have all kinds of proof texts that show that faith saves..not works. It's a commandment of Christ--and if you are saved, you will want to do what he commands...but there is way more evidence that the only requirement is faith.
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Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn
I do have to say, you're the first to finally take scripture by scripture and discuss it. Thank you for that. I do have to ask though, why you didn't comment on Acts 2:38?
Mark 16:16...Of course He didn't say, if you believe not and are baptized not you will be damned, because if one does not believe, obviously they aren't going to be baptized. But, it is clear, that He did say, He who believes AND is baptized shall be saved.
1 Peter 3:21...Exactly, so can we have a good conscience toward God before we're baptized?
Acts 22:16... we "call on the name of Lord" when we are baptized. Notice it says..."arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Not, ...wash away thy sins AND call on the name of the Lord.
Romans 6:3-4... the "us" are Christians. This verse states when we are baptized we are baptized into His death. This is how you come into contact with His shed blood, His death. It also says after we are baptized is when we walk a new life, so how can we have a "new life" before baptism?
Acts 22:16...Yes, and we call on His name when we are baptized. Do you believe one can be saved before their sins are forgiven? Because the Bible teaches our sins are washed away at baptism. (Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16)
1 Cor 12:12-13... so do you believe one is saved before joining the body of Christ? Or do we join when we are saved? We are baptized into the one body. I don't see how we can be saved but not a part of the body yet.
Gal 3:27... so do you believe we are saved before we put on Christ? This verse says those who have been baptized have put on Christ...so before we're baptized, how do we put on Christ?
So you believe that anyone who has faith in Jesus the Christ is saved?
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Originally Posted by ShalomPeace
The Oneness Pentecostal cult does not believe in the Trinity anyway. They think Jesus is the God of the OT as well as the NT. Even if they believe in Jesus and baptise in the name of Jesus alone, are they actually saved ??
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Originally Posted by [B
ForHimByHim[/b]9551455]I know that GOD is three Beings, but one GOD. So I'm very trinitarian in doctrine. But, even so, great emphesis should be placed on baptising in the name of JESUS CHRIST. JESUS CHRIST is the only name given among men whereby we must be saved, according to scripture, so therefore we should be baptized in the name of JESUS CHRIST. Also, in Acts, we should see that the early Church baptized in the name of JESUS CHRIST.
The Oneness Pentecostals do baptize correctly in the name of JESUS CHRIST, but sadly, they fail to understand the truth about GOD, that He is three individual Beings, eternally existing as One.
Are they saved? Well if they call upon the name of JESUS CHRIST in sincerity, repenting of sin, then my answer is yes. But, even when someone is saved, we still must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the LORD. So they need deliverance from thier shameful fault. Just as most trinitarians need to be baptised in the name of JESUS CHRIST.
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Originally Posted by juj
Could it be that the thief died under the old convenant?
The example of thief is irrelevant for two fundamental reasons. First, under the old covenant, he was not subject to the commandment of baptism to which we are subject. Second, he was an exceptional case that involved unpromised mercy from the Judge of all men, Jesus. Since Jesus Christ is the Judge, it is His prerogative and right to grant mercy where He has not promised to do so. But, just because He made a exception, does not mandate that He will do so for us on Judgment Day. Moreover, both the Old and New Testament examples of people who did not follow God's pattern teach us of God's wrath that fell upon those who willfully disobeyed God, even with the best of motives. Therefore, the concluding questions for us are these, "Will you and I choose not to be baptized despite all the Scripture's teaching on the essential role of baptism?" "What does the Bible say that God has promised for those who are guilty of willful disobedience?" There is only one answer for which God has promised, "he shall be saved" (Mark 16:15-16). Have you met the conditions of this promise?
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Originally Posted by ShalomPeace
Jesus baptized even while He was on earth.
John 3:22-26
After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized. Now John also was baptizing at Aenon near Salim, because there was plenty of water, and people were constantly coming to be baptized. (This was before John was put in prison.) An argument developed between some of John's disciples and a certain Jew over the matter of ceremonial washing. They came to John and said to him, "Rabbi, that man who was with you on the other side of the Jordan—the one you testified about—well, he is baptizing, and everyone is going to him.
Assuming that the thief was already baptized, what did he mean when he said to Jesus on the cross - save yourself and us ?
Luke 23:39
One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!
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Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn
He meant, save them from dying on the cross. Had nothing to do with salvation. He only wanted to be saved from physical death at that time. And, that was the OTHER thief that said that, not the one that Jesus told would be in Paradise. Re-read the story.
We are baptized today and are cleansed of our sins from Jesus' shed blood. This is under the new covenant. The thief was still under the old covenant, as Jesus hadn't died yet.
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Originally Posted by deerdog
Your right it was the other thief. We were still under the old covenant, however my question is this if we dont follow the things of the old covenant anymore then why do we deem it necessary to follow the Ten Commandments as they were developed under the OC. Now this is also something to keep in mind yes they commandments were rephrased in the NT but also was the salvation part as far as repent, believe. Romans chapter 6 strictly deals with how to be saved and nothing there says you must be baptized to be saved.
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Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn
I don't believe we are under the "Ten Commandments" anymore. Yes, 9 were repeated in the NT, and we are to obey those.
I believe we also must repent and believe, and confess before we are saved as well. Acts 2 also deals with salvation, but no where does it say we must confess, but we know we must, because it is said elsewhere. Same with Romans 6. We must do what it says, but also must do what is said elsewhere.
Now, Romans 6 DOES tell us that when we are baptized, we are baptized into Christ's death, which is how we come into contact with His death (or shed blood, that saves). It also tells us when we are baptized we are raised to walk a new life. So our "new life" doesn't start til after baptism.
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Originally Posted by ForHimByHim
This thread is about the biblical commandments for water baptism. Not a discussion about essential salvation.
Really?...hummmm.....wow...I must be imagining things...it's tough getting old..the brain does weird things...
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Originally Posted by ForHimByHim
I've never known a true Christian....
You question my Christianity...?
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....who has refused water baptism
First of all...show me where I said I refused water baptism................IN FACT!...I actually said this:
(you must have missed it...somehow.....I guess we're all aging a bit...)...but this is what I actually said:
There are two types of Baptisms... Be full to overflowing with the Holy Spirit...
Matthew 3:16 "The Baptism of Jesus"
After His baptism, as Jesus came up out of the water, the heaven's were opened and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and settling on Him.
After He came up out of the water, THE POWER OF THE HOLY SPIRIT WAS ALL OVER JESUS. HE WAS TOTALLY SATURATED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT. It must always be emphasized that being baptized by water IS NOT THE SAME as being baptized and FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT.
The word "baptized" means to be TOTALLY EMERSED...TOTALLY SATURATED...with the Holy Ghost. Just as a glass is totally emersed in water, God wants us to be totally immersed in the Holy Spirit. He wants His POWER to be a CONTINUED STREAM FLOWING THROUGH US TO MEET THE NEEDS OF THOSE AROUND US.
In speaking of the Holy Spirit, Jesus said: "He that believeth on Me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water" (John 7:38).
To be SPIRITUALLY PREPARED for Satan's attacks, we must not only be baptized in the Spirit, we must REMAIN FULL OF THE SPIRIT.
...people will go to a meeting...are filled...but before they come to the next meeting, everything they have received has "leaked out."...I know...this has been my own personal experience...and I have observed people like this in my own church. The depth of our Christian experience and our commitment to God is lke a roller coaster...up one day and down the next....During a time of spiritual revival we are up on "cloud nine," but out on the battlefield...when the going gets rough...we are down. God wants the Holy Spirit to FLOW THROUGH US IN A CONTINUAL STREAM, JUST AS THE HOLY SPIRIT FLOWED THROUGH JESUS IN A CONTINUAL STREAM TO HEAL THE SICK...CAST OUT DEMONS...AND RAISE THE DEAD.
The Same Spirit That Anointed Jesus Is The Same Spirit That Anoints Us
1 Corinthians 12:11-13 It is The One and Only Spirit Who distributes all these gifts.He alone decides which gift each person should have. The human body has many parts, but the many parts make up one whole body. So it is with the body of Christ. Some of us are Jews, some are Gentiles, some are slaves, and some are free. But we have all been baptized into one body by one Spirit, and we all share the same Spirit."
The Spirit that anointed Jesus is the same Spirit that anoints us. There are not two...there are not three Spirits. There is only one! There is only one Holy Spirit...one true anointing of God...with many different ministries. The same Spirit that baptizes also anoints...bears fruit...convicts...comforts...EMPOWERS...gives gifts...guides...illuminates the mind...regenerates...sanctifies...teaches...testif ies of Christ...TRANSFORMS...!!!
The same Spirit that anointed Jesus is the same Spirit that anoints us...YES!!...by God's same Spirit!!!...
...THIS MEANS THAT WHEN WE HAVE BEEN TRULY BAPTIZED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND ARE FILLED...FULL and OVERFLOWING...WE HAVE THE SAME AUTHORITY AND POWER THAT WAS DEMONSTRATED IN THE LIFE OF JESUS!!!...This is part of God's plan and purpose for our lives. He did not plan for us to go through life fearful...discouraged...overcome by our circumstances...beaten down by the devil.
GOD DID NOT PLAN ANY DEFEATS FOR US...HE PLANNED SPIRITUAL CONQUEST AND VICTORY!!!!!!!
He planned that same powerful Spirit within us so that we would be conformed and transformed into the image of His Son, whereby WE MANIFEST THE SAME MIRACLE-WORKING POWER IN OUR LIFE AS CHRIST DEMONSTRATED. Jesus said, "...as My Father hath sent Me, even so I send you" (John 20:21).
To Remain Full Of The Holy Spirit We MUST Keep Coming To The Baptizer.
Luke 3:16 "John The Baptist Prepares The Way"
John answered their questions by saying, "I baptize you with water; but someone is coming soon who is greater than I am~~so much greater that I'm not even worthy to be His slave and untie the straps of His sandals. HE WILL BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH FIRE.
So, according to the Word of God...the answer to your question is, yes..one must wait for the Second Baptism...that comes in and through the Holy Spirit and fills you to overflowing...with the POWER and AUTHORITY that comes with it that enables the one receiving the anointing to have POWER over sin in their life!!...each in their own time...depending upon their commitment to God and His will over their own.
In Christ's love,
Verna.
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Originally Posted by ForHimByHim
Water baptism is a commandment of CHRIST, and not an option.
No...The Baptism of The Holy Spirit...TheIndwelling of The Holy Spirit of Christ is not an option.
You're so grumpy...about something...why are you aiming you frustration toward me? Is there some under-lying "beef" that you would like to take up with me or what? Bring it on...I have strong shoulders...I can take it...really. What's up?
Most Sincerely,
Verna.
Last edited by Verna Perry; 07-05-2009 at 09:37 PM..
Can you quote specific scripture to support this? Where in the bible did Jesus commanded baptism in order to be saved?
Jesus: Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
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Originally Posted by ShalomPeace
Actually ALL of the 10 Commandments are mentioned in the NT.
The keeping of the Sabbath was not commanded in the NT.
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Originally Posted by deerdog
As for a commandment on baptism well it's not in there and won't be found.
Only to those who refuse to look. Baptism is a command.
Acts 2:38
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Jesus: Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
The second part of that verse says that he that believeth not shall be damned, NOT believeth AND baptized.
Hence, this verse cannot be used to prove that baptism is needed for salvation.
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Originally Posted by mzjamiedawn
The keeping of the Sabbath was not commanded in the NT.
It is :-
Matthew 24:20
Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
Luke 4:14-16
Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him. He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.
Acts 18:4
Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
Hebrews 4:9
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God
The second part of that verse says that he that believeth not shall be damned, NOT believeth AND baptized.
Hence, this verse cannot be used to prove that baptism is needed for salvation.
It never ceases to amaze me that people think they can just X out what Jesus said because He didn't say, "and he that believeth not and is baptized not shall be damned". It is obviously very clear that those who believe not are condemned already, so it doesn't matter what they do or don't do.
John 3:18...He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jesus clearly stated, "He who believes AND is baptized shall be saved."
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It is :-
Matthew 24:20
Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath.
Luke 4:14-16
Jesus returned to Galilee in the power of the Spirit, and news about him spread through the whole countryside. He taught in their synagogues, and everyone praised him. He went to Nazareth, where he had been brought up, and on the Sabbath day he went into the synagogue, as was his custom. And he stood up to read.
Acts 18:4
Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks.
Hebrews 4:9
There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God
I didn't say the Sabbath was mentioned, I said it wasn't commanded that we obey it. The law of keeping the Sabbath in the OT was very precise, but Jesus "broke" those by doing things on the Sabbath, and basically said it's ok. We are not commanded in the NT to obey the Sabbath as they obeyed it in the OT.
Your correct we are buried into his death but don't come into contact with the blood. Being buried into the death with baptism shows that the old you is dying as Christ did and rising like he did. Not contacting the blood. That is done with the Holy Ghost in a spiritual way.
Your correct we are buried into his death but don't come into contact with the blood. Being buried into the death with baptism shows that the old you is dying as Christ did and rising like he did. Not contacting the blood. That is done with the Holy Ghost in a spiritual way.
I disagree that we don't come into contact with His shed blood when we are baptized into His death. That's the whole point. I would love for you to show me a scripture that says we come into contact with His death in a spiritual way. One that is clear, just as Romans 6:3 is.
I do agree though, it's when the old you is dying and the new you raises to life. Can one be saved before that happens? We go into the waters of baptism dead in our sins, are buried with Him in the water, and are raised to a new life. Just like His death, burial, and resurrection.
Romans 6:4
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Question. You stated no where in the Bible will we find the command to be baptized. I showed you Acts 2:38. Were you wrong, or does Peter saying, "repent and be baptized", not a command?
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Be full to overflowing with the Holy Spirit... 
