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Old 07-04-2009, 10:06 AM
 
Location: USA
5,334 posts, read 1,893,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
So far alan you keep giving your opinion about the breath of life being conscious after death but no scripture. No scripture has been giving that says that is true. However, many scriptures have been giving that show that is not true. Was Adam conscious with God before the breath of life entered his body? Were you conscious with God before your spirit entered your body? What is the purpose of death being defeated if we are conscious with God after death anyway?

From what I understand, Biblically there is a smattering of evidence which could possibly indicate that Adam (mankind) had a conscious existance with God. I don't give it a lot of weight, but the possibility is there I suppose.

But, as to your final question ... As Christians, we believe that death is already defeated for us, do we not? We died spiritually, we are dying and will die physically. But Jesus says we have life now. As I was saying to Sven, we are born again and have new life, and to think that somehow our spirit will die again (or go into unconscious existance) doesn't seem to me to fit with the spirit of what Jesus was saying. So, yes, there is a purpose and it has been fulfilled spiritually and will be fulfilled physically.


[My default setting, so to speak, is that it truly does not matter to me if I am immediately with God or if it only seems that way because I've not been conscious of the time passing. But, for the purpose of having a better overall understanding of spiritual things, it is worth it to me to hash it out with the hope that at some point God will reveal the truth of the matter to me more clearly.]


ETA: I didn't want you to think I'm ignoring your supposition that we are not actually going to die spiritually but just fall asleep. But to me that assumes that "life" is a simple state of being whereas, as a Christian, I believe that LIFE is Jesus Christ. And He has promised to give us ABUNDANT life. I don't see how a state of unconsciousness is abundant, see where I'm coming from?
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Old 07-04-2009, 10:24 AM
 
2,940 posts, read 3,073,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
From what I understand, Biblically there is a smattering of evidence which could possibly indicate that Adam (mankind) had a conscious existance with God. I don't give it a lot of weight, but the possibility is there I suppose.

But, as to your final question ... As Christians, we believe that death is already defeated for us, do we not? We died spiritually, we are dying and will die physically. But Jesus says we have life now. As I was saying to Sven, we are born again and have new life, and to think that somehow our spirit will die again (or go into unconscious existance) doesn't seem to me to fit with the spirit of what Jesus was saying. So, yes, there is a purpose and it has been fulfilled spiritually and will be fulfilled physically.
Hey pleroo, our spirit or breath of life doesn`t die again. Jesus said you will never die..meaning cease to exist, perish. We all know John 3:16. That whosoever believes will not PERISH. How could we truly perish if our breath of life always remains conscious anyway?We will not perish..be gone forever. But it is as if we are asleep. It may appear we die, but it is like sleep. We will not truly perish which is what would happen if Jesus didn`t defeat death. Suppose Jesus didn`t die, would we still be conscious with God after death? After all, our breath of life comes from God. Even if you are an unbeliever your breath or spirit comes from God. So if it is a conscious thing, why wouldn`t it go back to God and remain conscious?
What Jesus did at the cross is defeat death. Now we will not truly perish but will live again. It seems if the breath of life is a conscious thing and would be alive anyway what is the point of Jesus dying?Jesus`s death didn`t make it so your breath of life is conscious. The breath of life is either a conscious thing or it isn`t. It is giving to everyone by God at the moment of conception.
It seems to me that if a person believes the breath of life always remains conscious after death, then John 3:16 would not make sense. You would never perish anyway. If once you have the breath of life it always remains conscious. But it doesn`t, so that is what is meant by John 3:16. You would perish if it wasn`t for Jesus because your body and spirit would never be reunited and you would cease to exist.


Quote:
My default setting, so to speak, is that it truly does not matter to me if I am immediately with God or if it only seems that way because I've not been conscious of the time passing. But, for the purpose of having a better overall understanding of spiritual things, it is worth it to me to hash it out with the hope that at some point God will reveal the truth of the matter to me more clearly.]
I agree. But Jesus did talk about life and death and I think it is interesting to learn of such things.
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Old 07-04-2009, 10:35 AM
 
Location: NC
10,976 posts, read 8,559,878 times
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Quote:
What is the purpose of death being defeated if we are conscious with God after death anyway?
Agree. God bless.
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Old 07-04-2009, 10:41 AM
 
Location: USA
5,334 posts, read 1,893,222 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Hey pleroo, our spirit or breath of life doesn`t die again. Jesus said you will never die..meaning cease to exist, perish. We all know John 3:16. That whosoever believes will not PERISH. We will not perish..be gone forever. But it is as if we are asleep. It may appear we die, but it is like sleep. We will not truly perish which is what would happen if Jesus didn`t defeat death. Suppose Jesus didn`t die, would we still be conscious with God after death? After all, our breath of life comes from God. Even if you are an unbeliever your breath or spirit comes from God. So if it is a conscious thing, why wouldn`t it go back to God and remain conscious?
What Jesus did at the cross is defeat death. Now we will not truly perish but will live again. It seems if the breath of life is a conscious thing and would be alive anyway what is the point of Jesus dying?Jesus`s death didn`t make it so your breath of life is conscious. The breath of life is either a conscious thing or it isn`t. It is giving to everyone by God at the moment of conception.
Okay, but if there is no difference between believers and unbelievers and both are in a state of unconsciousness and both will be resurrected at the end of this age, why did Jesus say that believers have "life to the age". And why is John 3:16 promising that if you believe you have "eternal" life, if all that He meant is that we'll never cease to exist when the same is true of unbelievers? Seems to me that Jesus is addressing much more than a mere state of existance.

To me, Jesus is making is a distinction between believers and non-believers when it comes to Life and death. But if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that their is NO distinction?

Quote:
I agree. But Jesus did talk about life and death and I think it is interesting to learn of such things.
And I agree ... it IS very interesting as well as beneficial to study these things and think on them.

[Sorry if that's a bit muddled. I'm being rushed off the computer by one of my kids. ]
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Old 07-04-2009, 10:45 AM
 
Location: NC
10,976 posts, read 8,559,878 times
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Here is a more literal translation of John 3:16

16for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

God bless.
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Old 07-04-2009, 10:46 AM
 
2,940 posts, read 3,073,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
ETA: I didn't want you to think I'm ignoring your supposition that we are not actually going to die spiritually but just fall asleep. But to me that assumes that "life" is a simple state of being whereas, as a Christian, I believe that LIFE is Jesus Christ. And He has promised to give us ABUNDANT life. I don't see how a state of unconsciousness is abundant, see where I'm coming from?
Yes, I do see where you are coming from. Do you believe you have abundant life now? Do you believe you are experiencing all God has spoken about in this life? Do you believe this life is the best there is? Of course not. Not right now, but there is coming a time when it will happen. Just like death. Just because you are sleeping at a particular point in time doesn`t mean you will not experience all the joy and abundant life that God has talked about. The following is an excerpt from a previous post I read about God. It is talking about things in the present as compared to the future:
God talks about things in the future as though they are. In Rom. 4:17, a very important principle in God's method is laid down; "God calleth those things which be not as though they were." God speaks of things that he determines to do as though they were done. He speaks of things in process as though completed. He speaks of things that are not as though they were. Read the l7th chapter of Genesis and note the tense of the verb in the 5th verse. "A father of many nations have I made thee." Humanly speaking God had not at that time made Abraham a father of many nations. He had only one son, Ishmael, the child of the bondwoman; and in the common course of nature there was no possibility of his having any more; (See Rom. 4:17-21), and yet God says, "The father of many nations have I made thee," as though it was something he had already done for him. Paul tells us that God was speaking of things that were not, as though they were. God has a right to speak thus. What God purposes to do is as good as done; nothing can thwart or disarrange his plans; there is no possibility of failure. Hence he has a right to speak of things that are not as though they were. When God makes a promise he need not say I will do so and so, but I have done it. In Rev. 21: 5-6, the expressed purpose "Behold I make all things new," is followed by the promise in the future tense, "I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely." But sandwiched between the two, as if to assure us that there is no doubt about the fulfillment, comes in the grand declaration, "These words are faithful and true. It is done, I am Alpha and Omega the beginning and the end." Thus we may rest on God's promises with the same assurance as though we already had the fulfillment.
So you see, you do have abundant life. Eventhough you may not be experiencing ALL that God has planned for us at the present. You can rest assured that God has declared it, so it IS done. Eventhough you may not be experiencing it right now in the confines of earthly time.

Last edited by spm62; 07-04-2009 at 12:14 PM..
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Old 07-04-2009, 12:12 PM
 
2,940 posts, read 3,073,644 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Okay, but if there is no difference between believers and unbelievers and both are in a state of unconsciousness and both will be resurrected at the end of this age, why did Jesus say that believers have "life to the age".
I don`t believe unbelievers will be resurrected at the end of this age.


Quote:
And why is John 3:16 promising that if you believe you have "eternal" life, if all that He meant is that we'll never cease to exist when the same is true of unbelievers? Seems to me that Jesus is addressing much more than a mere state of existance.
Only God has eternal life. He is the only one who is eternal. We have a beginning.
Do you believe unbelievers cease to exist?

Quote:
To me, Jesus is making is a distinction between believers and non-believers when it comes to Life and death. But if I'm understanding you correctly, you're saying that their is NO distinction?
No, believers have life....spiritual life. Unbelievers are spiritually dead. But we both physically die. Then the bible says both will be resurrected. Some to age abiding life and others to age abiding punishment or correction.



Quote:
And I agree ... it IS very interesting as well as beneficial to study these things and think on them.

[Sorry if that's a bit muddled. I'm being rushed off the computer by one of my kids. ]

Last edited by spm62; 07-04-2009 at 12:23 PM..
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Old 07-04-2009, 12:45 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,164,656 times
Reputation: 867
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
From what I understand, Biblically there is a smattering of evidence which could possibly indicate that Adam (mankind) had a conscious existance with God. I don't give it a lot of weight, but the possibility is there I suppose.

But, as to your final question ... As Christians, we believe that death is already defeated for us, do we not? We died spiritually, we are dying and will die physically. But Jesus says we have life now. As I was saying to Sven, we are born again and have new life, and to think that somehow our spirit will die again (or go into unconscious existance) doesn't seem to me to fit with the spirit of what Jesus was saying. So, yes, there is a purpose and it has been fulfilled spiritually and will be fulfilled physically.


[My default setting, so to speak, is that it truly does not matter to me if I am immediately with God or if it only seems that way because I've not been conscious of the time passing. But, for the purpose of having a better overall understanding of spiritual things, it is worth it to me to hash it out with the hope that at some point God will reveal the truth of the matter to me more clearly.]


ETA: I didn't want you to think I'm ignoring your supposition that we are not actually going to die spiritually but just fall asleep. But to me that assumes that "life" is a simple state of being whereas, as a Christian, I believe that LIFE is Jesus Christ. And He has promised to give us ABUNDANT life. I don't see how a state of unconsciousness is abundant, see where I'm coming from?
We are told that the dead believers are asleep(unconscious) in Christ.
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:52 AM
 
Location: USA
5,334 posts, read 1,893,222 times
Reputation: 717
Quote:
Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
I don`t believe unbelievers will be resurrected at the end of this age.
Quote:
No, believers have life....spiritual life. Unbelievers are spiritually dead. But we both physically die. Then the bible says both will be resurrected. Some to age abiding life and others to age abiding punishment or correction.
When do you believe that unbelievers will be resurrected if not at the end of this age?


Quote:
Only God has eternal life. He is the only one who is eternal. We have a beginning.
Yes, I know . That's why I put the word "eternal" in quotes. I agree with what Shana said about the translation ... "age-during" or something similar. But the fact remains that Jesus didn't stop at saying we have age-during life. He said that we would never die (or as trustinghim said, not dying to/for the age). Whatever that means exactly, I go back to the fact that we have the Life of Christ within us. That's not just some semantic thing ... we have the energizing source of LIFE within us and renewing us right now. How does LIFE sleep?

Quote:
Do you believe unbelievers cease to exist?
No, not at all. I believe that God has a plan for those who are consigned to unbelief in the here and now, just as He has a plan for those who He has elected to faith. How exactly the plan plays out, I do not know.

Last edited by Pleroo; 07-05-2009 at 10:11 AM..
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:56 AM
 
Location: USA
5,334 posts, read 1,893,222 times
Reputation: 717
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
We are told that the dead believers are asleep(unconscious) in Christ.
Yes, I understand that "asleep" is the euphemism that is used for death. You all could be correct that it means a state of unconsciouness. For the reasons I've stated I am still uncertain that I agree with that, but I am not saying I think you all are without Biblical foundation for your understanding.
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