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Old 07-05-2009, 10:01 AM
 
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Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
What God purposes to do is as good as done; nothing can thwart or disarrange his plans; there is no possibility of failure. Hence he has a right to speak of things that are not as though they were.
I understand what you're saying though I'm still not sure I agree that this is the case regarding this particular issue. I'm mulling it over and appreciate your patience and persistance in answering my questions.
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:19 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
From what I understand, Biblically there is a smattering of evidence which could possibly indicate that Adam (mankind) had a conscious existance with God. I don't give it a lot of weight, but the possibility is there I suppose.

But, as to your final question ... As Christians, we believe that death is already defeated for us, do we not? We died spiritually, we are dying and will die physically. But Jesus says we have life now. As I was saying to Sven, we are born again and have new life, and to think that somehow our spirit will die again (or go into unconscious existance) doesn't seem to me to fit with the spirit of what Jesus was saying. So, yes, there is a purpose and it has been fulfilled spiritually and will be fulfilled physically.


[My default setting, so to speak, is that it truly does not matter to me if I am immediately with God or if it only seems that way because I've not been conscious of the time passing. But, for the purpose of having a better overall understanding of spiritual things, it is worth it to me to hash it out with the hope that at some point God will reveal the truth of the matter to me more clearly.]


ETA: I didn't want you to think I'm ignoring your supposition that we are not actually going to die spiritually but just fall asleep. But to me that assumes that "life" is a simple state of being whereas, as a Christian, I believe that LIFE is Jesus Christ. And He has promised to give us ABUNDANT life. I don't see how a state of unconsciousness is abundant, see where I'm coming from?
Hey Pleroo...

I could have typed that entire post, myself.
Every single thing you said.
Our paths have met up and we're walking on the same road, for sure.
Glad to have company here.. lol.

peace,
sparrow
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:25 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Yes, I understand that "asleep" is the euphemism that is used for death. You all could be correct that it means a state of unconsciouness. For the reasons I've stated I am still uncertain that I agree with that, but I am not saying I think you all are without Biblical foundation for your understanding.
Hi pleroo, If dead believers are asleep in Christ, what does that mean to you?
Remember when Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping but the disciples misunderstood him to mean real sleep? Then Jesus had to plainly tell them he meant he was dead? Why do you suppose Jesus sad he was sleeping instead of dead? Why didn`t Jesus say in the beginning he was dead? What happens when we sleep? Are we conscious? Are we awake? When you sleep, are you dead? Of course you are not dead,you are alive but in an unconscious state.
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:50 AM
 
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Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Hey Pleroo...

I could have typed that entire post, myself.
Every single thing you said.
Our paths have met up and we're walking on the same road, for sure.
Glad to have company here.. lol.

peace,
sparrow
Sparrow, that's nice to know. Sometimes I feel like I'm always marching to the beat of my own drummer and while that isn't necessarily a bad thing, it can feel a bit lonely at times (even knowing that I'm never alone ).
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:55 AM
 
14,359 posts, read 7,153,634 times
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Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Hi pleroo, If dead believers are asleep in Christ, what does that mean to you?
Remember when Jesus said Lazarus was sleeping but the disciples misunderstood him to mean real sleep? Then Jesus had to plainly tell them he meant he was dead? Why do you suppose Jesus sad he was sleeping instead of dead? Why didn`t Jesus say in the beginning he was dead? What happens when we sleep? Are we conscious? Are we awake? When you sleep, are you dead? Of course you are not dead,you are alive but in an unconscious state.
Well, I'm thinking you could take sleep in many different ways: resting is the first thing that comes to mind. Another thought is that a person who is asleep is unconscious of their environment though their brain is still decidely busy. So, perhaps, to say one sleeps is to say they are no longer aware of the happenings in the physical world.

That's the best I can do with that question and I am not aware of any Biblical passages that explain it. Perhaps you are?
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:00 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Sparrow, that's nice to know. Sometimes I feel like I'm always marching to the beat of my own drummer and while that isn't necessarily a bad thing, it can feel a bit lonely at times (even knowing that I'm never alone ).

I hear ya.


By the way, this is just one of those topics that I like to give my viewpoint on who I agree with, but I don't really like to debate so much. It's just, I don't know... not really put on my heart TO debate. I believe what I believe for a reason. A large part of it is personal and things that have happened while dealing with deaths of loved ones. I feel that God spoke to me in very personal and comforting ways. (Something that happened while watching a loved one take their last breath, also He brought me to verses, gave me dreams that I woke right up out of and feel like I knew in my heart what was being conveyed, etc.) Just personal stuff, you know.

I could debate all day with people over verses but I'm 99.9% sure of what I believe. I leave the .1% open to the possiblity that perhaps God was showing me a "future" time of when we will be reunited, etc. (the thought that we do "sleep" but it's like no time has passed at all) That IS a possiblity, but just about every inch of my being is pulled towards the belief that when we die, we do NOT just go dormant, but we (our spirit, what have you) is reunited with the Creator. This ressurection spoken of could be instantantneous when we die meaning our whole self is ressurected, or it could be our spirit goes to be with God, (in what form I am not sure) and then our bodies are resurrected into our new glorious bodies. Not sure about all of the details. And I'm not really bothered by it. But I just do not believe that we go dormant. There may have been a time when people DID go dormant possibly. But not since Jesus' death on the cross and resurrection.

Sure there are lots of verses that say otherwise. But there are also verses that do not SAY otherwise. Personally, I cling to those that confirm what has happened in my own life. I feel very peaceful about this.

peace ya'll...
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:07 AM
 
14,359 posts, read 7,153,634 times
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Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
I feel very peaceful about this.
That particular line just struck me as particularly beautiful. Thanks for sharing Sparrow.

Also, I'm in this debate not to prove anyone wrong. It's something I feel in my spirit as you do Sparrow but not something I could prove to anyone. I suppose I debate it so I can get a clearer picture in my own mind of why I believe as I do, and always open to the possibility that I may be wrong.
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:11 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
That particular line just struck me as particularly beautiful. Thanks for sharing Sparrow.

Also, I'm in this debate not to prove anyone wrong. It's something I feel in my spirit as you do Sparrow but not something I could prove to anyone. I suppose I debate it so I can get a clearer picture in my own mind of why I believe as I do, and always open to the possibility that I may be wrong.

Definitely! and that's why I follow the debate.. lol.
I just don't actively participate. (because I don't quite know HOW to, if that makes sense.)
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:14 PM
 
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Originally Posted by spm62 View Post
Were you conscious with God before your spirit entered your body?
That is called "preexistence"
That is a Mormon teaching, I have no knowledge of any Christian church that teaches it.
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:17 PM
 
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Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
That is called "preexistence"
That is a Mormon teaching, I have no knowledge of any Christian church that teaches it.
then what makes you think you will be conscious after your spirit leaves your body
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