immortal soul and the doctrine everlasting torment (disciples, Christ, Kingdom)

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by spm62

Also paradise is not sometimes called Abraham`s bosom. It was called that in one of Jesus`s parables.

?
Yes, that is what I said...

That paradise is sometimes called by the term "Abraham's bosom"....I doubt the Jesus invented the term, so my guess is that it was a term known and used by people at that time to talk about the place where the believer spirits await the resurrection.

The term to me is a very intimate and tender term.
It speaks of holding someone like in a father's loving embrace of his child.

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Agree, spm62. I believe that it is a reference to all things evil, sinful,

"things" are not sinful
"things" are not evil

People are...

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by spm62

The word of God plainly says the dead know nothing...their thoughts perish.

Very true!
You can sit next to a dead body all day long and ask it questions and you will learn nothing.

The dead are mute.
They are speechless.
They know nothing and express nothing to us.

The dead can not share anything with us, nor tell us if they are happy or sad.
The dead can not do anything but turn to dust and be forgotten by all.
The most wise person alive will be just as much dust soon and the biggest fool.
Death cares little for who we think we are or how much we think we know.
The dead do not move, but must be moved by another.
You can talk to a dead body until you are blue in the face, it will not help...You will not learn anything.

All this is a hard lesson to learn.
I had to learn it myself sitting next to the body of my dad and just looking at him for hours.
It is there you learn what the Bible was talking about when it says, "The dead know nothing" for truly you have not sat in an empty room until you have sat in a room next to a loved one's casket.

But with this, there is also the knowledge that the dead watch over us.
That we are surrounded by a great company of witnesses and that the Church Triumphant stands before the alter of the Lord constantly.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

?
Yes, that is what I said...

That paradise is sometimes called by the term "Abraham's bosom"....I doubt the Jesus invented the term, so my guess is that it was a term known and used by people at that time to talk about the place where the believer spirits await the resurrection.

The term to me is a very intimate and tender term.
It speaks of holding someone like in a father's loving embrace of his child.

We are told paradise is Abraham's bosom and we have taken for granted that it is , but it could not be further from the truth.
The scenario of Lazarus and the rich man as nothing to do with heaven and hell.

[ShanaBrown]

"things" are not sinful
"things" are not evil

People are...

Hi alan, I was referring to all that is sinful including all things that are sinful in people. Sinful man will be destroyed and changed. God bless.

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by pcamps

The scenario of Lazarus and the rich man as nothing to do with heaven and hell.

The point of that story was found in the last part of it where it is said that some people will not believe even if someone comes back from the dead...

However the story itself gives us a hint of what life is like for both the believer and the unbeliever after death.

One of the more important things we learn in the story is the very clear manner that Jesus points out that there is a wide separation between the saved and the lost, and no one can ever go from one side to the other.

The way Jesus points this out in the story makes it clear to me that it is one of the important teaching points behind the story itself...

[alanMolstad]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Hi alan, I was referring to all that is sinful including all things that are sinful in people. .

My car is not sinfull, but I am, and I can be sinful in my car...
So it would be a bit pointless to point the finger of blame at my car...LOL

To sin is to turn away from doing what God wants...
Cats cant sin
Dogs cant sin.
My car cant sin.
None of the things I own are sinful.

only a person can sin.

only a person is judged for his sin....and the judgment for even one small sin is....death.

The only thing that keeps a Christian out of hells everlasting flame is the sin-cleaning power of the blood of Christ.

[legoman]

Originally Posted by alanMolstad

The point of that story was found in the last part of it where it is said that some people will not believe even if someone coms back from the dead...

However the story itself gives us a hint of what life is like for both the believer and the unbeliever after death.

One of the more important things we learn in the story is the very clear manner that Jesus points out that there is a wide separation between the saved and the lost, and no one can ever go from one side to the other.

The way Jesus points this out in the story makes it clear to me that it is one of the important teaching points behind the story itself...

I don't think that the chasm implies no one can ever cross, or that the chasm will always be there, or even that the rich man will always be there... just that it is currently impassible. IMHO The concept of eternal torment is not represented in a literal reading of the parable of the rich man.

Its more important to understand all of the symbols in this parable:
- who is the rich man?
- who is lazarus?
- what is Abraham's bosom?
- why clothed in purple?
- why crumbs?
- who are the 5 brothers?

These are all symbols.

Just my 2 cents...

[ShanaBrown]

My car is not sinfull, but I am, and I can be sinful in my car...

So it would be a bit pointless to point the finger of blame at my car...LOL

To sin is to turn away from doing what God wants...
Cats cant sin
Dogs cant sin.
My car cant sin.
None of the things I own are sinful.

only a person can sin.

only a person is judged for his sin....and the judgment for even one small sin is....death.

The only thing that keeps a Christian out of hells everlasting flame is the sin-cleaning power of the blood of Christ

Hi there alan, I was referring to all that is sinful,evil including all things that are sinful/evil in people. Sinful man will be destroyed and changed. Romans 8 also speaks of the creation being delivered, from the slavery to corruption, so I believe that this refers to whatever is enslaved to corruption and needs to be delivered. God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

I don't think that the chasm implies no one can ever cross, or that the chasm will always be there, or even that the rich man will always be there

I agree, legoman. The word, "ever" is not mentioned in reference to this. God bless.