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Old 07-04-2009, 01:54 AM
 
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When Jesus said he would go to the father, he did, so will we too when we die.
But it is not a physical place.
It is not a physical place because the Father is not a physical being....He is spirit.

Now when I say that: "The dead watch over us" and in a very real way this is 100% true..
sorta...

It is true, in that the dead are very awake and aware of the world.
But we must always keep in mind that when we say that the dead "watch over us", that we keep in mind that they are spirit, and a spirit does not have eyes...does not have a face (does not have flesh and bone)...a spirit does not have a 'location"

see?
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Old 07-04-2009, 02:21 AM
 
1,143 posts, read 865,179 times
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Quote:
The spirit of a person is away from the body and at home with the Lord when we die.
but Salomon did not distinct between the spirits of the just and the wicked, one can debate if a man's spirit alone is a conscious being.

Eccl. 12:7

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

it says return, so either men had a consious preexistence as spirits, something the bible does not say, or return means, return to nothing.

Quote:
Now when I say that: "The dead watch over us" and in a very real way this is 100% true..
sorta...
scripture says otherwise, Ecclesiastes 9:6

Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Quote:
The body our spirits get wrapped in in the resurrection is an everlasting body of flesh and bone...The context here teaches us that this is a new type of body that does not rot or get old or die.
but the bible does neither say nor imply that the wicked will raise in such body to suffer immortal torment, it simply does not.

Romans 2:5-8

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[SIZE=1][/SIZE]To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

the anger and wrath seems limited to Judgment Day, immortality seems only granted to the righteous.

Concerning the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, I wouldn't build a doctrine on that story, Abraham's bosom is no scriptural term at all but found in extra biblical Jewish sources only.

I further don't believe paradise is a part of Hades as this story implies.
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Old 07-04-2009, 02:25 AM
 
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Let me see if I follow your belief.
1) our spirits are really who we are..the real us. They are conscious and
able to rejoice, praise God, look down on earth etc.

"Look down" is a way to talk about how they are, and helps us understand the meaning of their life.
But we need to always keep in mind, that the dead are away from the body right now. and a body has the eyes that do the looking.
So the term"Look down" at us is a symbol for a way of life we cant actually fully understand....but is none the less very real.



2) our spirits (the real us) go to be with God the Father at death.

Yes, just as with Jesus who went to the Father.
The fullness of the Father dwells in the Son.



3) Then you say they go to be with the Lord. The Lord is Jesus, not the
Father so I`m confused on that part because you also state they are
with the Father.
The Kingdom of Heaven is not a physical place the way we know the term.
You cant say ever, "There is the kingdom of Heaven" as if it were in one location and not in another.
We die and go to be with the Lord, but this is not as such a local location.
It is not Physical place because the Father is not physical as in the manner the creation is physical.

All we can know of the Father is in the Son.
For in the Son the fullness of the Father is seen dwelling.
Jesus is in heaven right now....He is physical, but the dead are not Physical.
At the return of Christ the dead come from heaven with him...this must mean that if they come with him that they were with him before this too.

But 'with" is a term that might get you mixed up.
We will be "with" the Lord, and this is very true, as long as you remember the term is not about a physical location, as we will be only spirits then and have no physical nature or physical location until we put on our everlasting bodies.



But, then you turn around say it isn`t a physical place
because the Father isn`t physical but Jesus is. So how is Jesus with
the Father if Jesus is physical like us?

The fullness of the Father dwells in the Son.
There is nothing left out of the Father that is not found dwelling in the Son.
All that mankind will ever know of the father is shown us in the Son.
They are one...

So Jesus shows us that we will rise up in our new everlasting bodies, and enter into heavenly glory, we will be with the lord forever...Physicaly!
Jesus Christ forms the bridge between God and man.









4) You also state that we can`t be with the Father because of the
physical thing, but yet our spirit which is conscious and aware is with
the Father.

"With" is the hangup here.
I wish i could think of another word here, but I cant...

When we die we will go to be with the father, but this is not in a physical manner.
The reason is that the father is not physical but is pure spirit and as we dont have our new bodies yet, we are not physical as well but only spirit.
We are still 'with" the father, just not in a physical manner.
Umm...


Okay, Im going to really push things now and show you a way to understand the term "With the father"
EXAMPLE:...You are on the phone talking to your friend and he tells you something and you answer that you agree 100% with him .
You tell your friend, "Im with you on that one"

"Im with you"
This use of the same term "with" has nothing to do with a physical location.

Now that not really the same thing as when we go to be with the Lord in heaven, but you can get the idea that 'with" has many angles.



But after we get our physical bodies then we can`t be with
the Father anymore because now we are physical.
see above
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Old 07-04-2009, 06:26 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 2,197,012 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post

scripture says otherwise, Ecclesiastes 9:6

Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


The key thing to look at in that verse is the term "Under The Sun"
Under the sun means ....well...under the sun.
The earth is under the sun.
Everything I we do is under the sun.

But heaven is not under the sun.
So this is not talking about the spirit of the person as it is in heaven at all, but just about the person in their normal human life spent breathing/eating/and walking around on the earth "under the sun"

The term "under the sun" is used on that book of the bible over and over to talk about the whisper of time men will spend alive.
How vain man is to think that his time spent under the sun counts for anything compared to the time we will spend in heaven.

This also helps us understand the term "The dead know nothing"
This "dead" it is talking about are the dead also "Under the sun"
So we are not talking about the dead spirits in heaven, (for they know lots of stuff!) no but rather the dead who lay in the graves....

In other words, the dead "under the sun" are the dead bodies of people rotting in the grave to dust.
They are said to know nothing...
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Old 07-04-2009, 06:56 AM
 
12 posts, read 8,191 times
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[SIZE=5][SIZE=5][CENTER]This is an excerpt from an article from bibletruths.com,
it(to me) explains the "contradiction" from the words spoken in Genesis and what we are told in the new testament by Jesus. It comes down to proper translation:

DO BELIEVERS IN CHRIST NEVER DIE?[/CENTER]
But is this what the Christian Church teaches regarding sin and death? No, no it isn’t. They have in fact, translated some Scriptures to say the diametric opposite of what God has told us. Notice how the King James and many modern Bibles translate the following verse:
<B>
"And whosoever lives and believes in Me shall NEVER DIE. Believe you this?" </B>(John 11:26).
Wait a minute; wait a minute; wait a minute! What, pray tell, is going on here?
God told Adam that if he sinned then he would be dying until he ultimately died. And we have Scripture on that. Paul informs us that all mankind has sinned, and that the wages of sin is death. Furthermore we are told by inspiration of God’s Holy Spirit that ALL in Adam will die. Then we read a verse in the King James Bible which boldly states that those who believe in Christ (even though they too have sinned), "…will NEVER DIE."
God told Adam, "you shall SURELY DIE." The Serpent then said to Eve, "you shall NOT SURELY DIE." Does everyone agree that the serpent contradicted God? Does the serpent’s statement agree or disagree with the statement of God? The serpent contradicts God, doesn’t he? Yes, of course he does. This is extremely elementary. But… BUT, John 11:26 states in the King James, that whosoever believes in Jesus, "shall NEVER DIE." Now then, to whose statement does "shall NEVER DIE agree? Does it agree with God’s statement "shall SURELY DIE," or with the serpent’s statement, "shall NOT SURELY DIE?" Houston, we have a problem.
Did Jesus say one thing to Adam back in the Garden and then contradict Himself in His teaching of John 11:26? Does Jesus "change?" No. "Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, and for ever" (Heb. 13:8). Not only does the serpent’s statement contradict God’s statement, but according to the King James, even Jesus Christ contradicts God’s statement. Surely this cannot be. Remember all those statements of God regarding "adding to or taking from" the words of God? Well, I’m afraid the King James has done it again. Let’s take a look at this phrase "shall never die" from John 11:26 in a Greek Interlinear:
If you have e-Sword, you can see that the word translated "never" is the translation of three Greek words, not just one. Does it really take three Greek words to represent our English word "never?" No it doesn’t.
The Greek word oudeic means "not ever, none, nought" as in when Peter said to Jesus, "I will NEVER [#3762--oudeic] be offended" (Matt. 26:33). This word is translated "never" dozens of times in Scripture. However, in John 11:26 where we read "shall NEVER die," the word "never" is the singular word translation of three Greek words, not one of them being #3762, oudeic."
So what," you say? So maybe it behooves us to see just what Greek words God used in this verse, that’s what. This is one of those huge translation errors. This verse as recorded in the King James flat out contradicts God’s statement back in the Garden, that’s why.
The word "never" in John 11:26 is translated from:
#3364 = oume, "a double negative; not at all, neither, never, nor ever."
#1519 = ice, "to, into, throughout, for."
#165 = aion, "age."
[CENTER]BELIEVERS DO NOT DIE FOR THE EON[/CENTER]
Notice how more responsible translators have rendered this verse:
"…should by NO means BE DYING for the EON." (Concorant Literal New Testament). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"…NOT ever shall DIE to THE AGE."
(Jay P. Green: Interlinear Greek-English New Testament—from the Interlinear, not the translation). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"…NO one living and believing in Me, shall DIE to the AGE."
(Emphatic Diaglott). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
"…shall in ANYWISE DIE unto times AGE-abiding."
(Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible). There is no phrase, "shall NEVER die."
For sure, "All have sinned… the wages of sin is death… in Adam all die."
However, those "in Christ… should by no means be dying for the eon." And the reason is simple and Scriptural:
<B>
"…that He should give eonian life to as many as You have given Him" </B>(John 17:2)
And that:
<B>
"all which He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day" </B>(John 6:39).
Yes, we shall all die, but not for or through the eon. We will be raised and reign with Christ through the coming millennial eon (and beyond—"Know you not that we shall judge the world" (I Cor. 6:2).
And so it should be clear to all, that there is no word "never" in this Greek verse.
And oh how the translators hate to deal with this powerful little word aion in this verse, but they completely leave out.As anyone can plainly see, there are times when the translators just pretend that this little word, aion, isn’t even there. Theologians and preachers really hate when I expose things like this. No, I mean they really, really hate it. This verse in John 11:26 is one of their major "proof texts" by which they try to substantiate and legitimize their unscriptural pagan doctrine of the immortality of the soul, thus contradicting God’s own statement in Gen. 2:17, "you shall surely die."

i have a few other replys to a couple of points on this thread, but time constraints prevent me for now. i will comment on them when time allows.

Gods' Love and Peace
[/SIZE]
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=5][/SIZE]
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Old 07-04-2009, 06:56 AM
 
1,143 posts, read 865,179 times
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how do you understand these verses:


Isaiah 38:9-11 The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick and had recovered from his sickness: I said, In the meridian of my days I shall go to the gates of Sheol: I am deprived of the rest of my years. I said, I shall not see Jah, Jah in the land of the living. With those who dwell where all has ceased to be, I shall behold man no more.

Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who shall give thanks unto thee?

Psalm 13:3 Consider, answer me, O Jehovah my God! lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled; thou takest away their breath (=spirit), they expire and return to their dust.

Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not Jah, neither any that go down into silence;

Psalm 146:4 His spirit goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his purposes perish.

(Darby Translation)

that doesn't sound as if any dead spirit would be in the conscious presence of God
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Old 07-04-2009, 06:57 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 2,197,012 times
Reputation: 231
I waited too long to come back and edit my post...Hey it was late last night and now I cant change anything that was misspelled.
so i will "quote" the whole thing and see if i cant make it more clear.

Your text will be in black, my words and answers will be in blue, with a little red to keep it interesting...


Quote:
Originally Posted by alanMolstad View Post
Let me see if I follow your belief.
1) our spirits are really who we are..the real us. They are conscious and
able to rejoice, praise God, look down on earth etc.

"Look down" is a way to talk about how they are, and helps us understand the meaning of their life.
But we need to always keep in mind, that the dead are away from the body right now. and a body has the eyes that do the looking.
So the term"Look down at us" is a symbol for a way of life we cant actually fully understand....but is none the less very real.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

2) our spirits (the real us) go to be with God the Father at death.

Yes, just as with Jesus who went to the Father .
The fullness of the Father dwells in the Son.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

3) Then you say they go to be with the Lord. The Lord is Jesus, not the
Father so I`m confused on that part because you also state they are
with the Father.

The Kingdom of Heaven is not a physical "place" the way we know the term.
You cant say ever, "There is the kingdom of Heaven" as if it were in one location and not in another.
We die and go to be with the Lord, but this is not as such a local location.
It is not Physical place because the Father is not physical as in the normal manner the creation is physical.

All we can know of the Father is in the Son.
For in the Son the fullness of the Father is seen dwelling.
Jesus is in heaven right now....He is physical, but the dead are not Physical.
At the return of Christ the dead come from heaven with him...this must mean that if they come with him that they were with him before this too.

But 'with" is a term that might get you mixed up.
We will be "with" the Lord, and this is very true, as long as you remember the term is not about a physical location, as we will be only spirits then and have no physical nature or physical location until we put on our everlasting bodies.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

But, then you turn around say it isn`t a physical place
because the Father isn`t physical but Jesus is. So how is Jesus with
the Father if Jesus is physical like us?

The fullness of the Father dwells in the Son.
There is nothing left out of the Father that is not found dwelling in the Son.
All that mankind will ever know of the father is shown us in the Son.
They are one...

So Jesus shows us that we will rise up in our new everlasting bodies, and enter into heavenly glory, we will be with the lord forever...Physicaly!
Jesus Christ forms the bridge between God and man.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


4) You also state that we can`t be with the Father because of the
physical thing, but yet our spirit which is conscious and aware is with
the Father.

"With" is the hangup here.
I wish i could think of another word here, but I cant...

When we die we will go to be with the father, but this is not in a physical manner.
The reason is that the father is not physical but is pure spirit and as we dont have our new bodies yet, we are not physical as well but only spirit.
We are still 'with" the father, just not in a physical manner.

(Still mixed up about this?
Let me try to think of another way to talk about this...
)

Okay, Im going to really push things now and show you a way to understand the term "With the father"!!!

An EXAMPLE:...
You are on the phone talking to your friend and he tells you something and you answer that you agree 100% with him .

You tell your friend, "I'm with you on that one"

"I'm with you"

Do you see how this use of the same term "with" has nothing to do with a physical location?

Now that not really 100% the same thing as when we go to be with the Lord in heaven, but you can get the idea that 'with" has many angles.

------------------------------------------------------------------

But after we get our physical bodies then we can`t be with
the Father anymore because now we are physical.
see above

try that to see if it works better for you.

Last edited by alanMolstad; 07-04-2009 at 07:29 AM..
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Old 07-04-2009, 07:23 AM
 
3,067 posts, read 2,197,012 times
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My words will be in blue
I will keep your words in black.

Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
how do you understand these verses:


Isaiah 38:9-11 The writing of Hezekiah king of Judah, when he had been sick and had recovered from his sickness: I said, In the meridian of my days I shall go to the gates of Sheol: I am deprived of the rest of my years. I said, I shall not see Jah, Jah in the land of the living. With those who dwell where all has ceased to be, I shall behold man no more.

"Gates of Sheol" is a symbol for death.
The guy seems to be talking about dieing.
"I shall behold man no more" also seems to be about someone dieing.
--------------------------------------------------

Psalm 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee; in Sheol who shall give thanks unto thee?

dead bodies dont say a word to us.
The dead dont speak.
"Sheol" is a symbol of the grave of a person.
-----------------------------------------------------

Psalm 13:3 Consider, answer me, O Jehovah my God! lighten mine eyes, lest I sleep the sleep of death;

the sleep of death is to die.
The dead look and act as if they were sleeping.
This is why the living tend to say that a dead person is "Resting in peace' as from the outside that is what they look like they are doing,,,just resting.

------------------------------------------------

Psalm 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled; thou takest away their breath (=spirit), they expire and return to their dust.

dead : means to not have breath or have a hearbeat

------------------------------------------------------

Psalm 115:17 The dead praise not Jah, neither any that go down into silence;
Dead people dont say very much.
Dead people tend to just lay there where they fall and thats it, you actually have to pick up a dead person to get them moved to any other place.


----------------------------------

Psalm 146:4 His spirit goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his purposes perish.


"his spirit goeth forth" is just another symbol talking about dieing.
Its just another common manner we speak of death
.

(Darby Translation)
-----------------------------------------------------
that doesn't sound as if any dead spirit would be in the conscious presence of God
This is not talking about the spirit of a person in God's eyes, rather this was all talking about death in the eyes of the still living.
The book of Ecl talks about all things done "Under the sun" to also speak of things done in this life.
But God in his heaven is not "under the sun"

The living look at a dead person and think, "That it, he is finished, its all over, the dead no longer see or speak or know anything"
We just have to always keep in mind this is the point of view of the living person who looks at the dead body of another.
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Old 07-04-2009, 07:24 AM
 
Location: USA
5,051 posts, read 1,734,054 times
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Spm, Shana, I wasn't ignoring your posts just couldn't stay awake one second more last night! Thanks for the responses. You've given me things to think on. I'll keep reading along.
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Old 07-04-2009, 07:41 AM
 
Location: USA
5,051 posts, read 1,734,054 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
but the bible does neither say nor imply that the wicked will raise in such body to suffer immortal torment, it simply does not.

Romans 2:5-8

But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God's wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed. God "will give to each person according to what he has done."[SIZE=1][/SIZE]To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

the anger and wrath seems limited to Judgment Day, immortality seems only granted to the righteous.
So are you saying that "the wicked" are raised with corruptible bodies again?
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