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Old 06-30-2009, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,821 posts, read 2,317,596 times
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I realized that almost everyone who rejects the doctrine of the immortality of soul (or spirit) as unscriptural, rejects the idea of hell (everlasting torment) altogether.

my questions:

I. if you believe in hell:

a.) do you believe in the inherent immortality of the soul?; if not

b.) do you believe God will raise the unjust immortal only of with the purpose to make them able to suffer eternally?

II. if you believe in the immortality of the soul

a.) can you defend it scripturally?; if not, why do you believe it?
b.) if you would realize it is unscriptural, would you still believe in everlasting torment?

I would appreciate open answers
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:04 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 14,504,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I realized that almost everyone who rejects the doctrine of the immortality of soul (or spirit) as unscriptural, rejects the idea of hell (everlasting torment) altogether.

my questions:

I. if you believe in hell:

a.) do you believe in the inherent immortality of the soul?; if not

b.) do you believe God will raise the unjust immortal only of with the purpose to make them able to suffer eternally?

II. if you believe in the immortality of the soul

a.) can you defend it scripturally?; if not, why do you believe it?
b.) if you would realize it is unscriptural, would you still believe in everlasting torment?

I would appreciate open answers
I am confused, who is this directed to because I believe that the spirit is immortal.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:10 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,821 posts, read 2,317,596 times
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basically to everyone who believes in hell,

why do you believe men's spirit is immortal?
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:22 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 14,504,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I realized that almost everyone who rejects the doctrine of the immortality of soul (or spirit) as unscriptural, rejects the idea of hell (everlasting torment) altogether.

my questions:

I. if you believe in hell:

a.) do you believe in the inherent immortality of the soul?; if not
I don't understand; Our souls are not eternal but immortal, it had a beginning

Quote:
b.) do you believe God will raise the unjust immortal only of with the purpose to make them able to suffer eternally?
"unjust" I believe God will raise all bodies to have final judgment.

Quote:
II. if you believe in the immortality of the soul

a.) can you defend it scripturally?; if not, why do you believe it?
b.) if you would realize it is unscriptural, would you still believe in everlasting torment?
Yes I do believe and there are tons of scriptures to support it (Ecclesiastes 12:7) (Daniel 12:2–3) (Matthew 25:46) not to mention science says energy cannot be destroyed.
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Old 06-30-2009, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,821 posts, read 2,317,596 times
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Quote:
don't understand; Our souls are not eternal but immortal, it had a beginning


I havent't wrote eternal, I wrote inherent, are men born with an immortal soul? - where does the bible say so?

Quote:
not to mention science says energy cannot be destroyed.
what do you think does happen with a dead beast, will its conscience exist to eternity? who says that souls or spirits consist of energy?

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath*; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Eccl. 3:19

* breath is spirit, the very same word, Hebrew ruach, animals have spirits aswell according to the bible, do you think the spirits of animals are immortal? - if not so, why?
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Canada
589 posts, read 1,554,071 times
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The word "soul" in the English Bible refers to the physical body we have now; it is not the spirit or the essence, whatever that is. In Genesis' account when God created Adam he breathed life into him and he became a living soul.

In the future all humans who are not in the 1st resurrection of the saints (saints=immortals) will be in the 2nd resurrection to face God on the Great White Throne Judgment. The saved will be given eternal life while the wicked will DIE a second death in the Lake of Fire. Rev 20:11-15 There is no such thing as eternal torment. The 2nd death is final and the wicked are gone.
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:31 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 14,504,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post

I havent't wrote eternal, I wrote inherent, are men born with an immortal soul? - where does the bible say so?



what do you think does happen with a dead beast, will its conscience exist to eternity? who says that souls or spirits consist of energy?

For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath*; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
Eccl. 3:19

* breath is spirit, the very same word, Hebrew ruach, animals have spirits aswell according to the bible, do you think the spirits of animals are immortal? - if not so, why?
I don't see inherent and as far as beast go? I don't see animals having souls; they were not created in God's image.
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:43 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
I don't see inherent and as far as beast go? I don't see animals having souls; they were not created in God's image.
animals have, or better to say, are souls

Genesis 1:21-24 (Darby)

And God created the great sea monsters, and every living soul that moves with which the waters swarm, after their kind, and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply on the earth. And there was evening, and there was morning -- a fifth day. And God said, Let the earth bring forth living souls after their kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind. And it was so.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

no difference between human and animal souls mentioned
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Old 06-30-2009, 11:55 AM
 
8,989 posts, read 14,504,580 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
animals have, or better to say, are souls

Genesis 1:21-24 (Darby)

And God created the great sea monsters, and every living soul that moves with which the waters swarm, after their kind, and every winged fowl after its kind. And God saw that it was good. And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply on the earth. And there was evening, and there was morning -- a fifth day. And God said, Let the earth bring forth living souls after their kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth, after their kind. And it was so.

Genesis 2:7 (KJV)

And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

no difference between human and animal souls mentioned
Yes there is; the same things I tell the atheist until pack of dogs can produce and direct the segment of the 6:00 news then I will believe. Animals do not write music, paint; animals don't know right from wrong.

Animals are part of the creation but they are not made in the image of God.
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Old 06-30-2009, 12:11 PM
 
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I don't believe in eternal torture, but i think the idea of man having an immortal soul is not scriptural. According to scripture we must "put on" immortality. It seems immortality is to be incorruptible as well. If you die your obviously not immortal. King David and King Solomon had no illusions of the immortal soul. That is to say, outside of the resurrection. I believe that God keeps the souls alive(for lack of a better word, in backup storage, not active in the system so to speak) in order to be resurrected and face judgment.

The idea of the science of the soul is interesting but not necessarily scriptural.

In the Hebrew tradition the spirit is divided into three aspects of the soul. Neshamah is highest soul aspect of the spirit or what might be known in psychology as the ID, and the other two aspects stem from it when incarnate.

If Neshamah is the ID of our soul , that part which goes back to God ultimately and is the over all soul of which the other aspects are a subset, the Ruach is the self aware psyche or ego ... It is the conscious reason and imagination. Both practical and abstract, the Ruach discerns good and evil, right and wrong.

Then there is the Nepesh, which is the part of the soul that is the autonomous control of the body. It is the part of the soul(lowest incarnate aspect of the spirit) that even animals have. It controls breathing and the other various autonomic functions of the body and could be said to be instinctual and sensitive or emotional.

The argument then would be when mankind is said to be spiritually dead in adam, how does that affect the various aspects of the soul? It is as if the Ruach no longer has a connection to God to know him, and the neshimah is purging itself of the other lower aspects which would be the cause for the disease which is human mortality. Somehow the knowledge of Good and evil has compromised our relationship with God, and that which is his, our spirit which is of God is being rejected by the lower aspects of the soul and in affect we are dying every day.

What happens after death? Without the body the animal soul has no function, thus the aspect Nephesh does perish with the body. The ruach contains our personalities and memories, and can be said to sleep in the grave. It seems the matrix of our experiential beings is somehow fused into the matrix of the kosmos. The Ruach does not exist outside relativistic incarnation. Perhaps there is a dream state which the Ruach inhabits at the time of death, wherein it awaits to be wakened into the life of the body once again?

All of this is based on the science of the soul and especially of the Hebrew mystical traditions. But you may find it relevant.

Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 06-30-2009 at 01:03 PM..
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