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Old 07-08-2009, 12:20 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Illinois
396 posts, read 332,776 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Just read. Since I am Catholic, you won't believe anything I tell you, anyway. So just research it for yourself.

juj, I was raised Catholic and taught by Jesuits. I don't have a problem with Catholics. I just don't receive what contradicts scripture. If it doesn't contradict scripture, I don't have a problem. Jesus said, "SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES... He didn't say SEARCH THE CHURCH FATHERS. Even if you are a Catholic, Jesus is still the AUTHOR and FINISHER of your faith!
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Old 07-08-2009, 12:28 PM
 
992 posts, read 2,207,758 times
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What did the first Christians do before there was a Bible? Who complied the Bible? Who determined the Table of Contents? How did we get the Gospel of Mark and not the Gospel of Thomas? Up until 385 we did not have a Canon, so, what prevented people from going to heresies like Arianism? Tradition handed down from the Apostles.

In 325 the Council decided once and for all that Jesus was in fact God. Fully God and Fully Man. At that time there was no agreed upon Bible. Certainly their writings that were used, but so was tradition. Its not a either, rather a and.

If Sola Scriptura is valid, why then do we have major Christian sects coming to different conclusions about the basic issue of Salvation? Calvinist, AG, Baptist, etc.
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:45 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 1,486,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeapostle View Post
juj, I was raised Catholic and taught by Jesuits. I don't have a problem with Catholics. I just don't receive what contradicts scripture. If it doesn't contradict scripture, I don't have a problem. Jesus said, "SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES... He didn't say SEARCH THE CHURCH FATHERS. Even if you are a Catholic, Jesus is still the AUTHOR and FINISHER of your faith!
Not a single line if NT writing was written until 30 years after Jesus's death What did these folks write about when they finally started to write things down. Things that they have believed and done for the last thirty years of Christianity as either taught by Jesus by word of mouth, devinely revealed by the Holy Spirit, and portions of old testament teachings, a.k.a., TRADITIONS!

In the portion of scriptures you refer to, what section of scriptures do you think Jesus was talking about? (John 5:39 is what I assume you are quoting. The phrase was not used in a positive way by the way.) Jesus was referring to the Old Testament because that's all that there was. When Paul says scripture is good for all things, etc., he was talking about the Old Testament.

According to what I have read, the EARLIEST that the NT came together as grouped writings was around 140 A.D. That 140 YEARS without a new testament or a Bible. The Bible was canonized by the Catholic Church until the late 4th Century. That's almost 400 years. What were all these Christians doing without their Bible? Maybe they followed the traditions of the Catholic Church because that's all that there was for a very long time. Since the Catholic Church predates the Bible, many of the traditions that they have created and preserved are still being followed today. Why would the Catholic church throw out their sacramental traditions, doctrine, and matters of faith because the Bible was finally canonized? It was those traditions that not only helped fill the books of the Bible but also helped determine what books were considered orthodox teaching and therefore included in the Bible.

And maybe you were taught by Catholics, but you either had bad teachers or you weren't listening or you lack humility. You obviously don't understand or respect Papal Authority that clearly Jesus gave Peter, who with the power of the Holy Spirit, determined what is the true teaching of Christ. Your arrogance has taught you to believe in yourself and your understanding more than Jesus Himself or Peter and the Apostles, or the Authority that was passed down. Bummer.

Last edited by juj; 07-08-2009 at 03:54 PM..
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Old 07-08-2009, 03:58 PM
 
2,548 posts, read 3,319,611 times
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Read this book and come back and tell us what you've learned.

A Biblical Defense of Catholicism by Dave Armstrong. You can find it at Amazon.com


Quote:
Originally Posted by jeapostle View Post
juj, I was raised Catholic and taught by Jesuits. I don't have a problem with Catholics. I just don't receive what contradicts scripture. If it doesn't contradict scripture, I don't have a problem. Jesus said, "SEARCH THE SCRIPTURES... He didn't say SEARCH THE CHURCH FATHERS. Even if you are a Catholic, Jesus is still the AUTHOR and FINISHER of your faith!
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Old 07-08-2009, 04:52 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Illinois
396 posts, read 332,776 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
Not a single line if NT writing was written until 30 years after Jesus's death What did these folks write about when they finally started to write things down. Things that they have believed and done for the last thirty years of Christianity as either taught by Jesus by word of mouth, devinely revealed by the Holy Spirit, and portions of old testament teachings, a.k.a., TRADITIONS!

In the portion of scriptures you refer to, what section of scriptures do you think Jesus was talking about? (John 5:39 is what I assume you are quoting. The phrase was not used in a positive way by the way.) Jesus was referring to the Old Testament because that's all that there was. When Paul says scripture is good for all things, etc., he was talking about the Old Testament.

According to what I have read, the EARLIEST that the NT came together as grouped writings was around 140 A.D. That 140 YEARS without a new testament or a Bible. The Bible was canonized by the Catholic Church until the late 4th Century. That's almost 400 years. What were all these Christians doing without their Bible? Maybe they followed the traditions of the Catholic Church because that's all that there was for a very long time. Since the Catholic Church predates the Bible, many of the traditions that they have created and preserved are still being followed today. Why would the Catholic church throw out their sacramental traditions, doctrine, and matters of faith because the Bible was finally canonized? It was those traditions that not only helped fill the books of the Bible but also helped determine what books were considered orthodox teaching and therefore included in the Bible.

And maybe you were taught by Catholics, but you either had bad teachers or you weren't listening or you lack humility. You obviously don't understand or respect Papal Authority that clearly Jesus gave Peter, who with the power of the Holy Spirit, determined what is the true teaching of Christ. Your arrogance has taught you to believe in yourself and your understanding more than Jesus Himself or Peter and the Apostles, or the Authority that was passed down. Bummer.
You are right. I don't respect Papal authority, because I don't find it in the Bible. God gave Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers (Eph.4:11). He didn't give Popes and Cardinals. Forgive me if I don't respect unbiblical offices. Rome is not the headquarters of the church. The church is not connected to an earthly city. The church is connected to Zion, heavenly Jerusalem (Heb.12:22).
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Old 07-08-2009, 06:44 PM
 
992 posts, read 2,207,758 times
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Without Papal authority you have 33 thousand different popes with 33 thousand different interpretations of Scripture.

One of the 4 sign's of Jesus' church is that it is ONE.
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Old 07-08-2009, 10:56 PM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 1,486,589 times
Reputation: 317
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeapostle View Post
You are right. I don't respect Papal authority, because I don't find it in the Bible. God gave Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers (Eph.4:11). He didn't give Popes and Cardinals. Forgive me if I don't respect unbiblical offices. Rome is not the headquarters of the church. The church is not connected to an earthly city. The church is connected to Zion, heavenly Jerusalem (Heb.12:22).
If your Catholic teachers were worth their salt, they would have taught you about Matthew 16:13-19. This is where Jesus chooses Peter to be the head of His Church and gives Peter the authority (keys) to bind and loose. There is no other explanation that is valid for this series of verses despite what some of your protestant friends have told you.

Second, Rome is where Peter and Paul remains were buried and has always been considered the center of Christianity. This is acknowledged over and over again by writings of the Early Church Fathers that the Bishop of Rome was the head Bishop WAY before ANYONE sniffed a Bible.

From: CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.3 (St. Irenaeus)

St. Ignatius of Antioch - Epistle to Mary at Neapolis, Near Zarbus - Chapter 4 (Written no later than the early second century)

"Now it occurs to me to mention, that the report is true which I heard of you while you were at Rome with the blessed father Linus, whom the deservedly-blessed Clement, a hearer of Peter and Paul, has now succeeded."

Iranaeus of Lyons - Against Heresies - Book III, Chapter 3 Verse 2 - (Written in mid to late second century.)

"2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."

You need to hit the books again and have an open heart and an open mind which it clearly appears has closed over the years after listening to your protestant friends. After you hear anything enough times, you start to believe it. You been hearing the wrong things.

Last edited by juj; 07-08-2009 at 11:20 PM..
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Old 07-08-2009, 11:45 PM
 
Location: Chicago, Illinois
396 posts, read 332,776 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
If your Catholic teachers were worth their salt, they would have taught you about Matthew 16:13-19. This is where Jesus chooses Peter to be the head of His Church and gives Peter the authority (keys) to bind and loose. There is no other explanation that is valid for this series of verses despite what some of your protestant friends have told you.

Second, Rome is where Peter and Paul remains were buried and has always been considered the center of Christianity. This is acknowledged over and over again by writings of the Early Church Fathers that the Bishop of Rome was the head Bishop WAY before ANYONE sniffed a Bible.

From: CHURCH FATHERS: Against Heresies, III.3 (St. Irenaeus)

St. Ignatius of Antioch - Epistle to Mary at Neapolis, Near Zarbus - Chapter 4 (Written no later than the early second century)

"Now it occurs to me to mention, that the report is true which I heard of you while you were at Rome with the blessed father Linus, whom the deservedly-blessed Clement, a hearer of Peter and Paul, has now succeeded."

Iranaeus of Lyons - Against Heresies - Book III, Chapter 3 Verse 2 - (Written in mid to late second century.)

"2. Since, however, it would be very tedious, in such a volume as this, to reckon up the successions of all the Churches, we do put to confusion all those who, in whatever manner, whether by an evil self-pleasing, by vainglory, or by blindness and perverse opinion, assemble in unauthorized meetings; [we do this, I say,] by indicating that tradition derived from the apostles, of the very great, the very ancient, and universally known Church founded and organized at Rome by the two most glorious apostles, Peter and Paul; as also [by pointing out] the faith preached to men, which comes down to our time by means of the successions of the bishops. For it is a matter of necessity that every Church should agree with this Church, on account of its preeminent authority, that is, the faithful everywhere, inasmuch as the tradition has been preserved continuously by those [faithful men] who exist everywhere."

You need to hit the books again and have an open heart and an open mind which it clearly appears has closed over the years after listening to your protestant friends. After you hear anything enough times, you start to believe it. You been hearing the wrong things.
Yes juj, I agree Jesus did give the keys of the kingdom to Peter, but unfortunately Peter is not the head of the church, "For the husband is the head of the wife, AS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH: and he is the saviour of the body (Eph.5:23). How dare you replace Jesus with Peter.

It's unfortunate that Paul rebukes your head Peter at Antioch.

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to BE BLAMED...But when I saw that they walked NOT UPRIGHTLY ACCORDING TO THE GOSPEL, I said unto PETER before them all, If thou, being a JEW, livest after the manner of the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews.

There you have it, Paul rebuking the first POPE, PETER, and I thought that the POPE was infallible. juj, you need to hit the books again, all 66 of them, the bible!
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Old 07-09-2009, 01:02 AM
juj
 
Location: Too far from MSG
1,657 posts, read 1,486,589 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeapostle View Post
Yes juj, I agree Jesus did give the keys of the kingdom to Peter, but unfortunately Peter is not the head of the church, "For the husband is the head of the wife, AS CHRIST IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH: and he is the saviour of the body (Eph.5:23). How dare you replace Jesus with Peter.

It's unfortunate that Paul rebukes your head Peter at Antioch.

But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to BE BLAMED...But when I saw that they walked NOT UPRIGHTLY ACCORDING TO THE GOSPEL, I said unto PETER before them all, If thou, being a JEW, livest after the manner of the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews.

There you have it, Paul rebuking the first POPE, PETER, and I thought that the POPE was infallible. juj, you need to hit the books again, all 66 of them, the bible!
I guess Jesus was a liar. He made Peter the head of His Church. Jesus gave Peter the Authority to run His Church. The early Church under Peter fought herecy continuously because there are ALWAYS folks like you who think they know better. The Church headed by Peter, set up a system for the Bishops to be succeeded and with it, the Authority which was originally given to Peter BY JESUS. Many protestants argue that the end of the Authority ended with Peter. Heck, you don't even believe that the Jesus given Authority stayed with Peter until his death. Jesus spanked Peter, too. So what? Who came and spent two weeks with Peter to discuss what he was about to do before he went on his long missionary work. PAUL. Look Paul is clearly important to the early Church, but Peter is always listed first and is mentioned time and time again as the Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Christ. Even Paul recognized Peter's chair. So why don't you? You are polluted. This Authority of Peter and the succeeding Popes was going on long before some Bible verses were even a sparkle in Paul's eye.

You are just another obstinate sola scriptura person who thinks they have all the answers. For 1500 years, sola scriptura was irrelevent. It's only relevent for some today because of the false teaching of men.

I'll keep going to Jesus's Church, the Catholic Church.

Peace be with you.
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Old 07-09-2009, 01:14 AM
 
Location: Chicago, Illinois
396 posts, read 332,776 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by juj View Post
I guess Jesus was a liar. He made Peter the head of His Church. Jesus gave Peter the Authority to run His Church. The early Church under Peter fought herecy continuously because there are ALWAYS folks like you who think they know better. The Church headed by Peter, set up a system for the Bishops to be succeeded and with it, the Authority which was originally given to Peter BY JESUS. Many protestants argue that the end of the Authority ended with Peter. Heck, you don't even believe that the Jesus given Authority stayed with Peter until his death. Jesus spanked Peter, too. So what? Who came and spent two weeks with Peter to discuss what he was about to do before he went on his long missionary work. PAUL. Look Paul is clearly important to the early Church, but Peter is always listed first and is mentioned time and time again as the Bishop of Rome, Vicar of Christ. Even Paul recognized Peter's chair. So why don't you? You are polluted. This Authority of Peter and the succeeding Popes was going on long before some Bible verses were even a sparkle in Paul's eye.

You are just another obstinate sola scriptura person who thinks they have all the answers. For 1500 years, sola scriptura was a none issue. It's still a none issue.

Peace be with you.
Where in scripture is Peter the head of the church? Peter was a PILLAR in the church, along with James and John (Gal.2:9), but not the head. Is he a pillar and the head? I gave you Ephesians 5:23, JESUS IS THE HEAD OF THE CHURCH.

I thought the pope was infallible. How could Peter be wrong if he is infallible. What do you mean SO WHAT? The fact that Peter was wrong, and corrected by Paul, destroys your teaching on infallibility.

juj, I don't have a problem with traditions. Every group has traditions. I understand that. As long as you don't force your traditions on me, or elevate them to the level of scripture, I don't have a problem. I really don't care what the pope and cardinals do. If they want to dress with clerical garb, that's their business. I don't choose to dress clerically. It is not my tradition, and the word doesn't tell me I have to. I also believe Catholics can be saved. It is a heart issue. But don't tell me Peter was the head of the church. That is totally contrary to Ephesians 5:23.
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