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Old 07-04-2009, 06:11 AM
 
1,139 posts, read 974,092 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShalomPeace View Post
Actually, I have been defending Sola Scriptura with beliefs, not defending beliefs with Sola Scriptura.....

.... by so doing, I defend the belief OF Sola Scriptura.

We believe because of Faith - for without faith it is impossible to please God, and when we exercise faith, God rewards.

Hebrews 11:6
And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who comes to him must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who earnestly seek him.
Sorry but Using Sola Scritura, to defend beliefs, in order to defend Sola Scriptura is just going in circles
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Old 07-05-2009, 12:03 AM
 
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Shalom, do you find it interesting that no one but you is even giving an attempt at using Scripture to defend Sola Scriptura? Personaly I see it as a sign that it can't be done. Not to mention the fact that I Know it can't be done, cause no where in the bible does it say to use only the bible.
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Old 07-05-2009, 12:38 AM
 
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Originally Posted by juj View Post
We all have the bible. (Well, okay we don't even agree what should be in the bible, but that is another thread) What remains is who decides on the interpretation. Can the bible interpret itself. Should it be a man, a bible, and his opinion (aka every man for himself plus their brand of holy spirit) or should there be a higher authority to determine what some of those tricky verses mean and give order and consistancy to the sometimes contradictory appearing verses. The arguments on this forum alone reflect the many disagreements between Christian groups. There can be no doubt that there is NO way to determine on an individual basis who is right and who is wrong. Yea, I know B57 is always right, but other than him, how do we know where truth lies.

We already discussed that not all things are in the Bible, i.e.: the Trinity. So how did Christians embrace this complex concept and doctrine? It's a very core doctrine yet NOT in the Bible. Yes, you can piece things together, but the Bible doesn't say it directly. And if you believe in the Trinity, then you must have "read between the lines". Which of course is something that Fundy would never do. - aka double predestination. So I submit to you, that if you are a Trinity believing Christian, you are already a non-sola scriptura person by default. Ancient discussions, prayers, and conclusions provided us with the traditional doctrine of trinity.

Again, no one here is against the Bible. It's who gets the final say on interpretation and how does the Bible dovetail with some of our traditions and liturgy.
Just to add to what you said quite well, and I do agree with you wholeheartedly, is that people's beliefs are based on traditions, they way they were raised, and simply faith. They have faith in what their religion teaches them about Scripture, and if it sounds convincing, and makes logical sense to that person, then that person feels that he or she has the truth and that no one else can change their view point once it has been engrained in that person's head. For me, I gotta know all of the different perspectives on key controversial verses, pray about it, then ask the Lord to help me understand it the way HE wants me to understand that particular verse.
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:10 AM
 
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Originally Posted by antredd View Post
Just to add to what you said quite well, and I do agree with you wholeheartedly, is that people's beliefs are based on traditions, they way they were raised, and simply faith. They have faith in what their religion teaches them about Scripture, and if it sounds convincing, and makes logical sense to that person, then that person feels that he or she has the truth and that no one else can change their view point once it has been engrained in that person's head. For me, I gotta know all of the different perspectives on key controversial verses, pray about it, then ask the Lord to help me understand it the way HE wants me to understand that particular verse.
I doubt anybody on this forum, was given the bible, was told, all you need to know is in here, No one is allowed to tell you anything about the bible. You have to come with everything on your own. No people were taught. NO BODY uses Sola Scriptura, they all use the Bible & Tradition. They're tradition is just a lot more recent.
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Old 07-05-2009, 08:16 AM
 
173 posts, read 196,552 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
Sorry but Using Sola Scritura, to defend beliefs, in order to defend Sola Scriptura is just going in circles
It doesn't matter if it's going in circles, squares or triangles, but you know bro, if you have had tangible experiences with God and the Holy Spirit, you wouldn't even be asking such a question to begin with.

I can't help but wonder if you doubt the Sola Scriptura only because the "Traditions" upheld by Catholics cannot be exhaustively and conclusively verified with the Bible, so the only way to justify them is to discredit and debunk the Sola Scriptura in order to accommodate your extra-biblical beliefs. If your claim that your Traditions are all irrevocably biblical is true, then you guys should have no problems believing the Sola Scriptura too. The very fact that Catholics in every christian forum have to relentlessly argue with the Christians about the Sola Scriptura is already a strong suspicious indicator that your Catholic Traditions leave much to be desired biblically! And if the traditions are of such high value and importance to the Catholics, why on earth did they remain merely as “Oral Traditions” instead of having them carefully and properly translated into Written and Recorded Word and included in the Bible. After all, The New and Old Testaments were not compiled and made official until only centuries after the death of Jesus. Was that not enough time to record and include the “Oral Traditions” that Catholics are vehemently endearing to?

Sure you guys whip out 2 Thess 2:15 to justify your Traditions, but you know what? -- the scriptures have been skewed to accommodate your Traditions – instead of having traditions that clearly conform to the bible. There’s no definitive proof that the traditions referred to in 2 Thess 2:15 is about Catholic Traditions, and it’s impossible to reconcile that the Apostle Paul who wrote this scripture had in mind practices such as venerating the Mary, praying to dead saints and angels and praying the rosary, just to name a few. If only such traditions had been clearly outlined in the bible, Christians/Protestants would have no objections practicing them too, and the fact that we don’t follow any of such “traditions” since we do not know for sure what they really should be does not in any way nullify the Sola Scriptura.

Protestants/Christians trust and believe Sola Scriptura simply because we don’t see the need to believe in any other book, materials or traditions other than the bible. It’s all by FAITH. Simple faith. And unlike other religions including Catholicism, we don’t have to defend our faith in any way because God is showing up big time in our churches and in our lives – which I’m pretty sure no other religion can say the same! We have more than enough life testimonies that speak in defense OF Sola Scriptura, we don’t need to defend it using mind-boggling theological or intellectual logics and rhetorics.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DNick View Post
Shalom, do you find it interesting that no one but you is even giving an attempt at using Scripture to defend Sola Scriptura? Personaly I see it as a sign that it can't be done. Not to mention the fact that I Know it can't be done, cause no where in the bible does it say to use only the bible.


Perhaps it’s because this topic has already been discussed before in this CD forum some time back. And also probably because the other Christians here feel no need to defend for what they believe in. Christianity is all about faith.

I am reminded of a testimony that a Muslim guy shared in church once. He was struggling between the gods of the Koran and the bible, between Islam and Christianity. He was completely at unrest and turmoil within himself about being a Muslim and that’s when he decided to pick up the bible and read and compare it against the Koran in his attempt to find the true God. He was overwhelmed with guilt by his sin of homosexuality and struggling with constant shame and he couldn’t understand why “Allah” could not deliver him from his prolonged sin and self-condemnation. To cut a long story short, Jesus finally showed up in his life in the privacy of his room and spoke to him loud and clear : “ I AM – I am the Alpha and the Omega – the Truth, the Way and the Life”. Now he knew for sure that such Words ain’t found anywhere in the Koran …..

I wish I can point you to a website so that you can read and believe in his testimony yourself, but the truth is, the testimonies of Muslim converts are not uploaded on the web for obvious reasons. Now tell me, is that using scripture to defend Sola Scriptura, or is that a real-life testimony of a Muslim that speaks in defend of Sola Scriptura! If the Lord chose to identify and reveal Himself using solely Scriptures, why would we, who hear, witness and experience such powerful life-transforming testimonies not want to believe in Sola Scriptura? What else is there really to believe beside Sola Scriptura?
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Old 07-05-2009, 02:59 PM
 
1,869 posts, read 2,468,145 times
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Originally Posted by cjester View Post
These are not statistics. These are facts. Up until the 19th century most people were illiterate. The Catholic church relied on pictures and drawing to teach the illiterate peasants passages of the bible. Most people labored on the fields most of their waking hours. Even thousand years after the birth of Christ the overwhelming majority of the people in Europe were illiterate serfs. The further one goes in history the harder it is just to survive much less have time to learn to how to read.
You said that neither Jesus nor any of his disciples could read or write, which is a falsehood. I simply pointed out that they could and gave reasons why. Someone else pointed out how Jewish males had to be able to read to join the faith at a certain age. I was merely talking about Jews during the time of Jesus.
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Old 07-05-2009, 09:30 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Luvvarkansas View Post
You said that neither Jesus nor any of his disciples could read or write, which is a falsehood. I simply pointed out that they could and gave reasons why. Someone else pointed out how Jewish males had to be able to read to join the faith at a certain age. I was merely talking about Jews during the time of Jesus.
Jesus did not demonstrate a lot of interest in the need for the written word. He did not leave any text or book written by him. His disciples were simple peasants who may or may not have been literate. If Jesus would have thought that script or writing was of the utmost importance he would have written a book himself or at least have chosen highly literate and educated disciples. However, it is apparent that he did not think highly of those literate and educated Sadducees and Pharisees. (Middle and upper class Jews).
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:58 PM
 
173 posts, read 196,552 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjester View Post
Jesus did not demonstrate a lot of interest in the need for the written word. He did not leave any text or book written by him. His disciples were simple peasants who may or may not have been literate. If Jesus would have thought that script or writing was of the utmost importance he would have written a book himself or at least have chosen highly literate and educated disciples. However, it is apparent that he did not think highly of those literate and educated Sadducees and Pharisees. (Middle and upper class Jews).

Matthew 4:1-11
Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'" Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.


Now that most certainly does not sound like Jesus did not demonstrate a lot of interest in the need for written word !!!


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Old 07-05-2009, 10:58 PM
 
1,869 posts, read 2,468,145 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cjester View Post
Jesus did not demonstrate a lot of interest in the need for the written word.
Really? Then why did He answer Satan with scripture when He was tempted by him?

3And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

Three times He did this.

Now, how are we to know what words have proceeded out of the mouth of God unless they are written down somewhere?

Methinks you don't believe the Bible is the word of God, though, so any discussion with you on this is probably pointless.

P.S. As soon as I posted this I saw that ShalomPeace had posted almost exactly the same thing! Check out the posting times, we must have been typing at exactly the same time. Pretty funny.

Last edited by Luvvarkansas; 07-05-2009 at 11:01 PM.. Reason: adding p.s.
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Old 07-06-2009, 07:11 AM
 
469 posts, read 687,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShalomPeace View Post
Matthew 4:1-11
Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread." Jesus answered, "It is written: 'Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.'" Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: " 'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'" Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'" Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me." Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: 'Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.'" Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.


Now that most certainly does not sound like Jesus did not demonstrate a lot of interest in the need for written word !!!


[SIZE=3]If you believe that as truth, then the Bible pretty much confirms that the Devil is a world maker. He obviously can create physical and material things. . Christ didn’t tell the Devil you’re lying because only God the Jehovah is the only creator. Who knows then if this world might have been created by the Devil also? However, why the Jehovah is telling everyone “I am the maker the only maker and creator” someone must have gotten their facts wrong. [/SIZE]
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