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Old 07-02-2009, 08:59 AM
 
6,209 posts, read 3,753,879 times
Reputation: 647
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
So Fundy... I agree with whatever these verses are intending to say. I agree that God "hates" (whatever exactly God means by that) the "wicked" (whatever exactly God means by that).

My question is, what conclusions do you draw from God "hating" the "wicked". Do you admit that God also "hated" David and all the "elect" when they were wicked?
I view it like this.

God does indeed hate some things, but God is love. The things that He hates are not of love. He hates sin, wickedness, and the wicked. God's hate is not like a man's, because He is love.

When a man hates something, he will seek to destroy it and remove it and punish it and put it out of sight. But the man's hate lingers on. If it were possible, man would hate for eternity (leading to the belief of eternal hatred/punishment). Man has no real power to transform that which He hates. So man will hate until something changes his heart, or something changes that which he hates.

When God hates something, he transforms it. He does this by removing/destroying/purifying/changing that which He hates into something that He loves. In this case it is the sin and carnal flesh that must die. The old carnal flesh, which causes sin, must cease to exist. This will happen at death, and then we are transformed into a new creation at the resurrection.

So to summarize:
Man hates for the purpose of hating, because of his heart.
God hates for the purpose of transforming.

Don't confuse the two.

God is love. All of His attributes and actions are an expression of that love. Even His hate. His hate is an expression of His love transforming something. When God is done, there will be nothing left that He hates - it will all have been transformed by Christ. Then God will be all in all. God does not hate forever.

Hope that made sense.
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Old 07-02-2009, 09:04 AM
 
Location: RI
18,948 posts, read 8,789,398 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I view it like this.

God does indeed hate some things, but God is love. The things that He hates are not of love. He hates sin, wickedness, and the wicked. God's hate is not like a man's, because He is love.

When a man hates something, he will seek to destroy it and remove it and punish it and put it out of sight. But the man's hate lingers on. If it were possible, man would hate for eternity (leading to the belief of eternal hatred/punishment). Man has no real power to transform that which He hates. So man will hate until something changes his heart, or something changes that which he hates.

When God hates something, he transforms it. He does this by removing/destroying/purifying/changing that which He hates into something that He loves. In this case it is the sin and carnal flesh that must die. The old carnal flesh, which causes sin, must cease to exist. This will happen at death, and then we are transformed into a new creation at the resurrection.

So to summarize:
Man hates for the purpose of hating, because of his heart.
God hates for the purpose of transforming.

Don't confuse the two.

God is love. All of His attributes and actions are an expression of that love. Even His hate. His hate is an expression of His love transforming something. When God is done, there will be nothing left that He hates - it will all have been transformed by Christ. Then God will be all in all. God does not hate forever.

Hope that made sense.
I like that . God is in the business of restoring not destroying , and He always uses fire to restore.

When we discipline our own children it is never with the intent to destroy them , but to correct them, if we being evil have this attribute how much more does our heavenly Father exceed our limitations in correcting us.

Last edited by pcamps; 07-02-2009 at 09:20 AM..
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Old 07-02-2009, 11:58 AM
 
4,054 posts, read 2,122,000 times
Reputation: 947
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I view it like this.

God does indeed hate some things, but God is love. The things that He hates are not of love. He hates sin, wickedness, and the wicked. God's hate is not like a man's, because He is love.

When a man hates something, he will seek to destroy it and remove it and punish it and put it out of sight. But the man's hate lingers on. If it were possible, man would hate for eternity (leading to the belief of eternal hatred/punishment). Man has no real power to transform that which He hates. So man will hate until something changes his heart, or something changes that which he hates.

When God hates something, he transforms it. He does this by removing/destroying/purifying/changing that which He hates into something that He loves. In this case it is the sin and carnal flesh that must die. The old carnal flesh, which causes sin, must cease to exist. This will happen at death, and then we are transformed into a new creation at the resurrection.

So to summarize:
Man hates for the purpose of hating, because of his heart.
God hates for the purpose of transforming.

Don't confuse the two.

God is love. All of His attributes and actions are an expression of that love. Even His hate. His hate is an expression of His love transforming something. When God is done, there will be nothing left that He hates - it will all have been transformed by Christ. Then God will be all in all. God does not hate forever.

Hope that made sense.

Hey legoman, it definitely makes sense.
Thanks for posting that.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:12 PM
 
4,437 posts, read 5,809,497 times
Reputation: 1342
Quote:
Originally Posted by Latte'Chic View Post
Thank you, BT.....!!
You're welcome and thank you for admitting it.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:15 PM
 
3,552 posts, read 2,844,236 times
Reputation: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
What on earth do you think John was saying then ?
I understood it, but not as this nonsense you are teaching. Read if from chapter 1, and work your way to chapter 3. Maybe that will make sense.

Quote:
Hotinaz you obviously need to read John chapter 3 .
You obviously need to read a whole lot more than that. You now sit here and say it is ok to sin,,but really your spirit cannot,,but umm your flesh is a different being than your spirit?? Reread the first 2 chapters of 1st John. And he was talking to believers, not unbelievers.

Quote:
Again i say to you what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit.
No, you didn't say that,,,Jesus did, but oviously you don't understand it.

Quote:
We are born again spiritually , not born again fleshly
We are praying for a birth from above. Spritually. Birthed into a new Kingdom, with a King. The word "again" is defined as :

1) from above, from a higher place
a) of things which come from heaven or God
2) from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
3) anew, over again


Quote:
That which is born of God (your born again spirit)cannot sin, it is that simple it it's untrue
Then IF you were born again, and the Spirit of Christ was indwelling in YOU, then you do not nor cannot sin, either in the flesh, nor the spirit. Show me a verse that says you can, and I will show you 10x that amount that says you cannot.

So unless you are on the path of repentance, and with His help overcoming the flesh,,then how can anyone call themselves a Christian, justified in the Blood of the Lamb, and then not represent the King as His servant, doing His will and the Will of Him that sent Him FOR us?
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:36 PM
 
1,488 posts, read 883,016 times
Reputation: 148
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
I view it like this.

God does indeed hate some things, but God is love. The things that He hates are not of love. He hates sin, wickedness, and the wicked. God's hate is not like a man's, because He is love.

When a man hates something, he will seek to destroy it and remove it and punish it and put it out of sight. But the man's hate lingers on. If it were possible, man would hate for eternity (leading to the belief of eternal hatred/punishment). Man has no real power to transform that which He hates. So man will hate until something changes his heart, or something changes that which he hates.

When God hates something, he transforms it. He does this by removing/destroying/purifying/changing that which He hates into something that He loves. In this case it is the sin and carnal flesh that must die. The old carnal flesh, which causes sin, must cease to exist. This will happen at death, and then we are transformed into a new creation at the resurrection.

So to summarize:
Man hates for the purpose of hating, because of his heart.
God hates for the purpose of transforming.

Don't confuse the two.

God is love. All of His attributes and actions are an expression of that love. Even His hate. His hate is an expression of His love transforming something. When God is done, there will be nothing left that He hates - it will all have been transformed by Christ. Then God will be all in all. God does not hate forever.

Hope that made sense.
Yes, I think I agree. If you notice I keep putting the word "hate" in quotes. It's because I don't believe "hate" in the bible has quite the same connotation as the word "hate" in English. God does "hate" (whatever exactly that means) the wicked but that does not mean He does not intend to do them good in the end. The wicked may not (probably won't) think God is intending to do them good while God is "hating" them. They may even (imo wrongly) think God hates them in all the worst senses of that word. But God's ultimate purpose is to do them good.
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Old 07-02-2009, 12:57 PM
 
Location: RI
18,948 posts, read 8,789,398 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
I understood it, but not as this nonsense you are teaching. Read if from chapter 1, and work your way to chapter 3. Maybe that will make sense.



You obviously need to read a whole lot more than that. You now sit here and say it is ok to sin,,but really your spirit cannot,,but umm your flesh is a different being than your spirit?? Reread the first 2 chapters of 1st John. And he was talking to believers, not unbelievers.



No, you didn't say that,,,Jesus did, but oviously you don't understand it.



We are praying for a birth from above. Spritually. Birthed into a new Kingdom, with a King. The word "again" is defined as :

1) from above, from a higher place
a) of things which come from heaven or God
2) from the first, from the beginning, from the very first
3) anew, over again




. Then IF you were born again, and the Spirit of Christ was indwelling in YOU, then you do not nor cannot sin, either in the flesh, nor the spirit. Show me a verse that says you can, and I will show you 10x that amount that says you cannot

So unless you are on the path of repentance, and with His help overcoming the flesh,,then how can anyone call themselves a Christian, justified in the Blood of the Lamb, and then not represent the King as His servant, doing His will and the Will of Him that sent Him FOR us?
It still says the same if you read it from chapter one , it's just that you do not understand the concept of flesh and spirit.

Never once said it's ok to sin , that is a cheap shot hotinmaz.

When i said yo again i say to you i was saying i have already told you i do not know how many times what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit.

No we are not praying to be ,we are born from above.


You said
"Then IF you were born again, and the Spirit of Christ was indwelling in YOU, then you do not nor cannot sin, either in the flesh, nor the spirit. Show me a verse that says you can, and I will show you 10x that amount that says you cannot
So unless you are on the path of repentance, and with His help overcoming the flesh,,then how can anyone call themselves a Christian, justified in the Blood of the Lamb, and then not represent the King as His servant, doing His will and the Will of Him that sent Him FOR us?"

You have just answered this yourselfYou obviously now acknowledge there is part of you that is flesh . What part do you not understand that , that which is born of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the spirit is spirit ?.
Why do you not even try to explain this scripture to me if you think i am interpreting it wrong ? What else does it mean but what is says .

Regarding repentance i think we have gone through this before i repented when i first believed , i repent on a daily basis because of that which is not of God (my flesh , my natural man, which produces all manner of sin in me)in me.
It is the goodness of God that leads a man to repentance , in otherwords God causes me to.

Romans 7 Paul said this

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law.

So Paul is clearly referring to his inner being ,what is the inner being ? that which is born of God , what is the present evil that is with him ? , his flesh of cause!!!!!!!.When Paul came to understand this He understood what you failing to see .He was under condemnation because of his flesh but brought out from underneath when he understood that it's not him doing it . He was not denying the existance of sin and saying he doesn't sin , he was determinig where it was coming fom and that was not from the inward man but the flesh.

Last edited by pcamps; 07-02-2009 at 01:11 PM..
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Old 07-02-2009, 01:54 PM
 
3,552 posts, read 2,844,236 times
Reputation: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
It still says the same if you read it from chapter one , it's just that you do not understand the concept of flesh and spirit..
Actually it does make sense, but I have not have the True Revealing to fully understand it.

Quote:
Never once said it's ok to sin , that is a cheap shot hotinmaz.
You said your flesh will always sin. In other words??

Quote:
When i said yo again i say to you i was saying i have already told you i do not know how many times what is born of the flesh is flesh and what is born of the spirit is spirit.
Hmm, ok. not understanding this statement.

Quote:
No we are not praying to be ,we are born from above.
Really, prove it. If the Father is IN you, then you could show me. Everyone talks a good game, but there have been few to actually prove it.


You said
"Then IF you were born again, and the Spirit of Christ was indwelling in YOU, then you do not nor cannot sin, either in the flesh, nor the spirit. Show me a verse that says you can, and I will show you 10x that amount that says you cannot
So unless you are on the path of repentance, and with His help overcoming the flesh,,then how can anyone call themselves a Christian, justified in the Blood of the Lamb, and then not represent the King as His servant, doing His will and the Will of Him that sent Him FOR us?"

Quote:
You have just answered this yourselfYou obviously now acknowledge there is part of you that is flesh .
Umm, why would I not ackonwledge that?

Quote:
What part do you not understand that , that which is born of the flesh is flesh that which is born of the spirit is spirit ?.
That is a mystery, which it seems you have all figured out. For myself, it is a Work in progress.

Quote:
Why do you not even try to explain this scripture to me if you think i am interpreting it wrong ? What else does it mean but what is says .
It also says in John:

"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Is this you?


Quote:
Regarding repentance i think we have gone through this before i repented when i first believed , i repent on a daily basis because of that which is not of God (my flesh , my natural man, which produces all manner of sin in me)in me.
At what time does the repentance end, and the Glory awaiting to be indwelled in you begin?

Quote:
It is the goodness of God that leads a man to repentance , in otherwords God causes me to.
I believe it is a 2 way street. Otherwise it takes free will OUT of the equation.


Quote:
Romans 7 Paul said this

21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law.


So Paul is clearly referring to his inner being ,what is the inner being ? that which is born of God , what is the present evil that is with him ? , his flesh of cause!!!!!!!.When Paul came to understand this He understood what you failing to see .He was under condemnation because of his flesh but brought out from underneath when he understood that it's not him doing it . He was not denying the existance of sin and saying he doesn't sin , he was determinig where it was coming fom and that was not from the inward man but the flesh
Ok, you have read this sermon piece well. Now read Romans 8, closely and clearly, asking for the Spirit to guide you into a deeper Truth. The last verse in Romans 7 says:

I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Does this verse tell us that the flesh 'serves' the law of sin? Because that is what it implies. I would rather think so, until????

Now read Romans 8. Yea, all of it. The flesh is an enemy of God. It sets itself against God. This is why we cannot walk according to the flesh, nor acknowledge it, nor give it power. It is called overcoming, to put it in Biblical terms.

Romans 8 gives us a glimpse at what we ARE becoming.
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Old 07-02-2009, 02:13 PM
 
Location: RI
18,948 posts, read 8,789,398 times
Reputation: 1328
Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Actually it does make sense, but I have not have the True Revealing to fully understand it.



You said your flesh will always sin. In other words??



Hmm, ok. not understanding this statement.



Really, prove it. If the Father is IN you, then you could show me. Everyone talks a good game, but there have been few to actually prove it.


You said
"Then IF you were born again, and the Spirit of Christ was indwelling in YOU, then you do not nor cannot sin, either in the flesh, nor the spirit. Show me a verse that says you can, and I will show you 10x that amount that says you cannot
So unless you are on the path of repentance, and with His help overcoming the flesh,,then how can anyone call themselves a Christian, justified in the Blood of the Lamb, and then not represent the King as His servant, doing His will and the Will of Him that sent Him FOR us?"



Umm, why would I not ackonwledge that?



That is a mystery, which it seems you have all figured out. For myself, it is a Work in progress.



It also says in John:

"The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Is this you?




At what time does the repentance end, and the Glory awaiting to be indwelled in you begin?



I believe it is a 2 way street. Otherwise it takes free will OUT of the equation.




Ok, you have read this sermon piece well. Now read Romans 8, closely and clearly, asking for the Spirit to guide you into a deeper Truth. The last verse in Romans 7 says:

I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Does this verse tell us that the flesh 'serves' the law of sin? Because that is what it implies. I would rather think so, until????

Now read Romans 8. Yea, all of it. The flesh is an enemy of God. It sets itself against God. This is why we cannot walk according to the flesh, nor acknowledge it, nor give it power. It is called overcoming, to put it in Biblical terms.

Romans 8 gives us a glimpse at what we ARE becoming.
Apart from the fact you cannot understand the flesh and spirit , i think we are going around in circles saying the same thing.
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Old 07-02-2009, 08:32 PM
 
Location: NC
11,034 posts, read 8,605,279 times
Reputation: 1236
Quote:
So to summarize:
Man hates for the purpose of hating, because of his heart.
God hates for the purpose of transforming
Agree! God bless.
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