Prior to the cross ,how were you condemned to hell ? (Gospel, believers)

[svenM]

concerning hell in the Old Testament, thats interesting:

The Exact Nature of Sheol, Hades and Hell.

According to the King James Bible, Jonah was forever in hell (Jonah 2:2, 2:6), yet he was delivered after 3 days (Jonah 1:17, 2:10; Matthew 12:40)

Every mention of hell in those verses are mistranslated , and should say hades ,sheol, gehenna and tartarus.Not one of the correct translations refers to eternal hell.

it's no misstranslation at all, however the valley of Hinnom should not have been translated with hell, the term hell in itself means to conceal as far as I know, this meaning fits perfect in Jonah 2:2 e.g., but the word hell implies false notions for modern readers.

Jonah was concealed in the belly of the fish, he was in hell.

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by svenM

concerning hell in the Old Testament, thats interesting:

The Exact Nature of Sheol, Hades and Hell.

According to the King James Bible, Jonah was forever in hell (Jonah 2:2, 2:6), yet he was delivered after 3 days (Jonah 1:17, 2:10; Matthew 12:40)

Yes and David said if he made is bed in hell , He would be there.

[Cyber Munchkin]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Latte Chic and ILNC .

Let us suppose we have never heard of the teaching Universal reconciliation . You two and I attend the same church . We have regular Wednesday night bible study , and for a whole month at our Wednesday bible study we are studying hell.
Each one of us as an opportunity to share and lead the study . I am asked by the pastor to lead the first study , i study for a whole week and through my study i discover that hell does not really mean eternal torment after researching the original text (remember we have never heard of universalism)and even though i have shown this as being the truth i am none the wiser about UR , just for the first time discovered the truth about hell.

Latte Chic you are up the following Wednesday you already had you study already done , infact you had studied at the same time i did , in readiness if i could not lead the first study .
Now you had prepared a study that hell means eternal torment , what are you going to do now i have shown through the original text there is no such thing,what are you going to do with your study notes ?.

ILNC you might as well tear your notes up for your week of leading and get the night off.

Remember not a word of universalism as been uttered in the studies , just the fact that through research we have discovered the true meaning of the word hell.

pcamps, I won't play your games of reasoning! And I don't say or mean that in a sarcastic way!
I believe Jesus Christ and all that He spoke especially about one who is condemn because of unbelief and will not believe Him in what will happen to that life eternally. (John 3:15-21)
I believed Him the first moment He reveal Himself to my life and gave up the rights to myself twenty something years ago to Him and I will not compromise my relationship with Him in appeasing man and man's reasoning of God's truth.
I have no reason to doubt Him and what He spoke about hell. He is God and can do what ever He chooses to do. If He said those who will not believe Him are going to a place of eternal separation from Him I believe it.
I don't sit around trying to reason it out in my heart if it is true or not. I trust Him with all my heart!
One of my favorite promises from God in His word is....Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding: in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths (Prov.3:5-6).
His perfect love has cast out all fear of everything in and about my life.... including eternal separation (hell) from Him.
It is not up to me to try and make you or anyone believe the truth about hell taught in God's word. It is between that individual and Him.
The only responsibility God has placed in my life is to share His word (the gospel) with other's and He is the one who opens and reveals Himself to them.
It is all about Him and bringing Him glory in what He reveals and if He has not revealed it to you or anyone, it is because He choose not to and that it is all in His timing and hands. It is not my responsibility to try and prove it to know one.
All souls belong to God and He will do what He choose to do with them.
I gave you the scripture of hell in the OT and if you want to believe the New King James Bible is not God's word that is between you and God, not me! I believe it is His word given to us.

Blessings

[svenM]

He is God and can do what ever He chooses to do. If He said those who will not believe Him are going to a place of eternal separation from Him I believe it.

but He didn't say so, if He spoke in Aramaic or Hebrew, that language even had no word that meant eternal in our modern sense!

He didn't speak in English, and if He spoke in Greek there were words that actually meant eternal or endless, but He did not use them.

However I realized, the discussions are always the same, the verses, the arguments are always the same.

For example, Matthew 25:46 vs. Colossians 1:20 etc…

Universal reconciliation can’t be refuted without scriptural contradictions or at least rational contradictions, one might live with that but a contradictive exegesis of the word of God can’t be satisfying and is hardly convincing when talking with unbelievers, ever wondered why so many want to have nothing to do with nominal Christendom? ("For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written." Romans 2:24)

There have dozen if not hundreds articles been written on the Greek terms eiV ton aiwna (to eternity, forever???), aiwnioV (everlasting, eternal???).

But I guess few who reject universalism have actually made the effort and tried to check it on their own; of course one can claim everything, to translate aiwnioV with aeonian rather than with eternal alone does not prove anything, a single translation alone is also no authority, on the other hand, majority and tradition aren’t an argument either.

However those who claim these words mean endless should check it on their own if their claims are actually true, who believes aiwnioV means endless or eternal in its modern sense should look at Romans 16:25, Titus 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:9, Philemon 15 in the Greek text of the New Testament (more than 3 witnesses) and compare it with the Strong numbers, if this definitions can be right (Strong’s Number 166), who believes eiV ton aiwna means for eternity shall look at Deuteronomy 15:17, 1 Samuel 27:12, Psalm 73:12, Micah 4:5 in the Septuagint Greek text (more than 3 witnesses, see Deuteronomy 19:15).

Knowing Greek does not turn anybody in a universalist, I will give an example: I’m German, I would say my English is pretty good, I came to the conclusion that a good translation for aiwnioV might be perpetual, I don’t understand perpetual as endless according to the definitions given in a dictionary. However some native English speakers might understand perpetual as a synonym of everlasting.

The point is, my understanding what perpetual means does not affect my ability of speaking English, it doesn’t make it better or worse. So it is with Greek, I like the Darby translation, I think it’s a pretty literal translation, I think J.N. Darby was a good Greek scholar, though he translated aiwnioV as eternal on the authority of some dictionaries and Plato, if I assume he was wrong, which I do, it would not undermine his scholarliness as he was no native speaker and relied on his sources as I do on the word perpetual, on the other hand, being a good Greek scholar makes him in no way to an authority, or any other. I think you can get a Greek professor who supports any position concerning this topic; I guess opinions vary among them as much as among religious people.

My point here is, the discussion on universalism should not be stressed on the verses that speak about "eternity", as there is no explicit scriptural support for the idea of eternity, whatever one conceives with that term.

On the term hell in Old Testament, "hell" is only a word, where does the Old Testament desribe hell as a place of the dead suffering?

I gave you the scripture of hell in the OT and if you want to believe the New King James Bible is not God's word that is between you and God, not me!

do you think only the New King James Bible is the word of God, what about Darby (no hell in the OT) Jewish translations (no hell in the OT), Young's, Rotherham's, Concordant Literal (no hell in the entire bible), are they not the word of God?

[pcamps]

Originally Posted by Latte'Chic

pcamps, I won't play your games of reasoning! And I don't say or mean that in a sarcastic way!
I believe Jesus Christ and all that He spoke especially about one who is condemn because of unbelief and will not believe Him in what will happen to that life eternally. (John 3:15-21)
I believed Him the first moment He reveal Himself to my life and gave up the rights to myself twenty something years ago to Him and I will not compromise my relationship with Him in appeasing man and man's reasoning of God's truth.
I have no reason to doubt Him and what He spoke about hell. He is God and can do what ever He chooses to do. If He said those who will not believe Him are going to a place of eternal separation from Him I believe it.
I don't sit around trying to reason it out in my heart if it is true or not. I trust Him with all my heart!
One of my favorite promises from God in His word is....Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your own understanding: in all your ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct your paths (Prov.3:5-6).
His perfect love has cast out all fear of everything in and about my life.... including eternal separation (hell) from Him.
It is not up to me to try and make you or anyone believe the truth about hell taught in God's word. It is between that individual and Him.
The only responsibility God has placed in my life is to share His word (the gospel) with other's and He is the one who opens and reveals Himself to them.
It is all about Him and bringing Him glory in what He reveals and if He has not revealed it to you or anyone, it is because He choose not to and that it is all in His timing and hands. It is not my responsibility to try and prove it to know one.
All souls belong to God and He will do what He choose to do with them.
I gave you the scripture of hell in the OT and if you want to believe the New King James Bible is not God's word that is between you and God, not me! I believe it is His word given to us.

Blessings

Latte Chic i did believe the KJV was indisputable , but God made me aware that it was not .
Why can't you be honest and open enough to seek whether this be the truth or not ?.I would hope that i was open enough to at least look into to it to see if these things be true.

There is a price to pay for believing UR , you lose christian friends quicker than you lose friends in the world when you first believe.

When the wall of ET comes down in your heart it certainly brings you into the freedom of Christ.

Admitting you are wrong is no shameful thing and humiliating thing it is actually gloriously liberating. When i admitted i had it all wrong the only humility i suffered was before my Father but He did not condemn me He welcomed me. Praise God


Do you believe there was ever any translations before the KJV or do you believe the original text was in KJV ?.

[Miss Shawn_2828]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Every mention of hell in those verses are mistranslated , and should say hades ,sheol, gehenna and tartarus.Not one of the correct translations refers to eternal hell.

I'm sure you will say other wise, but if you do a study of the words, then you will have the understanding of the meaning of the words.

The New Testament Greek words for hell are "hades" and "gehenna" and they both have different meanings. Hades means the unseen world of the dead. It has nothing to do with punishment or reward. It is equivalent to the Hebrew word "sheol" in the Old Testament in its meaning. Gehenna, on the other hand, is the abode of punishment for the wicked.

[svenM]

Gehenna, on the other hand, is the abode of punishment for the wicked.

Gehenna is literally the valley of Hinnom, as proven by the Septuagint:

Joshua 18:16

και καταβησεται τα ορια επι μερους του ορους ο εστιν κατα προσωπον ναπης ονναμ ο εστιν εκ μερους εμεκραφαιν απο βορρα και καταβησεται γαιεννα επι νωτου ιεβουσαι απο λιβος και καταβησεται επι πηγην ρωγηλ

And the border came down to the end of the mountain that lieth before the valley of the son of Hinnom, and which is in the valley of the giants on the north, and descended to the valley of Hinnom, to the side of Jebusi on the south, and descended to Enrogel,...

the bible does not say that Gehenna is a place of literally everlasting conscious suffering after death.

[pcamps]

What i find very interesting is that there is no threat of hell fire and eternal torment to be found at the time the commandments were given to Moses.

Latte Chic's list of hell verses apart from one after the law of commandments is given is pretty much non existant.

If christian logic is anything to go by, if Grace came with the threat of eternal torment for those who refused to believe , would not the introduction of the Law carry a greater threat of it , but it is simply not there in the books of Moses.

[Cyber Munchkin]

Originally Posted by pcamps

Latte Chic i did believe the KJV was indisputable , but God made me aware that it was not .
Why can't you be honest and open enough to seek whether this be the truth or not ?.I would hope that i was open enough to at least look into to it to see if these things be true.

There is a price to pay for believing UR , you lose Christian friends quicker than you lose friends in the world when you first believe.

When the wall of ET comes down in your heart it certainly brings you into the freedom of Christ.


Do you believe there was ever any translations before the KJV or do you believe the original text was in KJV ?.

I am being honest and I am open.....and have quite a few different Bibles in my home, but I believe Jesus Christ! Not man and his reasoning to what he believes in what God's word is saying and they have for some reason not wanting to take God's word to mean what it says and have to seek other translations or what ever to what they want God's word to say, I guess.... instead of just believing God, period!

How do you know pcamps it was God that revealed to you about the KJV??? Are you absolutely positive....Satan come as the light and is very crafty in what he does. He is so deceptive and can deceive one with out them even realizing it!!!

I don't have the need to prove to myself that God could be possibly not showing me His WHOLE truth that I need to go into some depth study of words, meanings and translations proving to myself that God is being up front about all. I believe it just as it is spoken through Christ.
I have looked at the UR teaching and everything about it and the Holy Spirit has given me scripture to show it is a false teaching. Sorry! There is no wall of UR that will ever come down in my heart. I am already free in Christ Jesus! And there is nothing in this world that will separate me from His love and truth especially the freedom given to me by faith in Christ Jesus, to believe.

Yes, there is price to pay in believing in Christ Jesus. I have been there and still am.....but I don't regret one moment of it!
I have lost most of my friends and family even those who claim to be Christian that have compromise in the teachings of today.
See there is a problem with the internet, cyber space.....pcamps, if you lived next door to me and knew me personally and about my life...... you would see it in a total different light.....you might even like me

Blessings...

[pcamps]

Latte Chic we are not reasoning it is there in black and white in plenty of translations , so what makes the KJV the only correct translation out there?.

Again it is not reasoning it is there in black and white.

I do believe you have to go into deep study , deep calls unto deep . The deeper you go the more His unsearchable riches are discovered.

Latte Chic i am sure you are a wonderful person and would be a perfect neighbor , but the debate is about where is eternal hell in the OT and not about ourselves.