Who says Hell is eternal seperation?

[ShanaBrown]

Amen, Ironmaw, especially knowing that Jesus will abolish all rule, power, and authority. (except the Father's of course )God bless.

[ScarletWren]

The Jubilee is one of the most ignored ordinances God gave to Israel, especially in the churches. I NEVER heard this preached once that I recall. Most preachers just consign it as not having worked and so God dismissed it and it was unimportant.

But it was VERY important, as were all the ordinances and feasts which God commanded Israel to observe.

No matter how far in debt the Israelite got, no matter who had the lease right to his property, a debtor had the right to either pay his own debt if he could obtain the means and go back to his inheritance, OR a kinsman could come and redeem him. The owner of the debtor HAD to take the payment owed from the kinsman, it was the LAW. A friend could OFFER to redeem the person, but then the note/debt holder could refuse to relinquish the debt/debtor. Jesus served as our kinsman redeemer and paid the price to redeem us from the grave. Not some hell, but the grave. THAT was the punishment for sin. If Jesus paid the price for all, He will be Lord of all. When a kinsman redeemed his relative, the relative was NOW indebted and was owned by the kinsman. He was not free in the sense that he could go back about his business. Now he was to serve his kinsman. HOWEVER God established laws that no slave was to be mistreated in any way. They had rights. If no one redeemed the man, at the end of the Jubilee period, he was to go back to his property and all debt was cancelled. You can be sure that anyone who leased fields/property made sure he did not loan more that was feasible to be paid back within the time allotted. The closer Jubilee was, the less was given for control of the land. Through Jubilee God shows us that no debt is held against someone FOREVER. There is a time limit. Now death/the grave should have been irreversible, but Christ's blood was shed so we can be legally raised from the dead. But there is a sin debt accrued by everyone. Those who took Christ's payment for us will serve the rest of our sentence with Him as our master, and his yoke is easy and not burdensome. Those who refused His redemption, will serve a much harder master and go through much fiercer torments UNTIL God declares His final JUBILEE. When that will be, only God knows, not even the Son. But we can rest assured that it will happen and then even Christ will give His crown to the Father and God will be ALL in ALL.

There was an allowance for a man to stay with his master if he loved his master, and this would be for the man's lifetime. The KJV and most modern English translations state that a man could swear himself to his master FOREVER, but this is a mistranslation. It could only be until one or the other died. Tho if the master died, the servant/slave could continue with the son, I suppose but only until his own death. Since sin will be done away with, no man can serve sin eternally. Sin can no longer torment its slaves if it no longer exists. God says His anger does not last forever but his mercy does.

[ScarletWren]

Part two

The symbolism of this observance is that we have been sold into sin by Adam. But we have a kinsman redeemer in Jesus Christ. He bought us, yet most of his redeemed CHOSE to stay with their former master, SIN, because they never heard that they were redeemed, OR didn't believe/chose not to believe that he was a good master. Nevertheless, We belong to Him. We can choose to stay where we are, unto the ages of the ages, but when sin is no more, when there is no more curse on the earth, where else can a person be but in the presence of God? And when we look fully in the face of Jesus, why would anyone want to? None of that will be finished however, until all souls, who belong to God through Jesus, have acknowledge their new master, with love and adoration and gratefulness, and have been forged into the likeness of Jesus, the second Adam, the spiritual man in complete accord with God's purposes and plans.

He HAS redeemed everyone. That is the GOOD NEWS. Jesus' ambassadors are to spread that good news. God, through Jesus Christ, has conciliated us to Himself. Jesus didn't intercede with God to stop His anger against us. it was God's plan from the beginning to reconcile us to him. Reconcile means peace between BOTH parties. If only one has made peace, it is CONCILIATION. So God is conciliated to us. When we accept God's peace and redemption, then there is a RECONCILIATION.

Just because God works with only a portion of His redeemed in each age, does not mean He has no regard for the rest of His flock. He will seek until the very last one is found and accepts His peace.

We just don't want to see the 'wicked' released ever.

Satan at first offered Jesus many riches and the world if he would bow down and worship him, but when Christ refused, Satan (though it was God's plan all along) conspired to have Him brutally whipped and tormented, mocked and crucified, one of the most torturous deaths known to man at the time, because He would not accept his wicked offer. Christ's suffering ended. But we want to believe in a Loving Creator who offers us peace and security IF in a certain time frame, we bow down and worship Him, but if we are stubborn past that time, He will torment us forever? Now who does that really sound like? And if you say people themselves choose a pit of suffering, why does God allow that? He is GOD. He looked ahead and saw the horrible condition sin would produce. He doesn't have to resurrect anyone if He doesn't want to. So why not just leave them in the grave?

Olam/aion and their adjectives do NOT mean eternity/eternal/forever as we perceive those words. Scripture says the sacrificial system was to remain forever, but it ended. That God would abide in the earthly temple forever. But it was destroyed. He still resides in an earthly tabernacle, his saints' bodies. Many places in the New Testament where aion is used, the translators rendered it world, age, NOT, NEVER, before time began, etc. because eternity/eternal would not make any sense in those passages. They even outlawed scripture reading by the masses for a long time so no one would be able to argue against what they taught and if anyone was able to see for themselves and made Rome's tyranny known they were stripped of all their property, and banished or burned at the stake, often after brutal torture. They did all they could to protect the doctrine of eternal torment in order to control their flock and their pursestrings. Now, it is mostly indoctrination and centruies of repetitive teaching that perpetuates this monstrous lie. Most all who preach it believe it.

If it makes you feel happier and/or safer to believe in ET, rock on!! But you are missing one of the richest, most merciful, most comforting messages the Bible has to offer, lifting up Christ as our kinsman redeemer.

another long post, sigh.

[ShanaBrown]

Excellent posts, ScarletWren. Thanks and God bless.

[meerkat2]

Originally Posted by ScarletWren

Part two

But you are missing one of the richest, most merciful, most comforting messages the Bible has to offer, lifting up Christ as our kinsman redeemer.

another long post, sigh.

And an excellent one too

He was made like unto his brethren (human beings)

Christians like to think that their brothers/sisters are only those who believe in Christ - but all humanity are brothers/sisters, we have brothers/sisters (in Christ) and brothers/sisters (in the world)

1Pe 5:9 Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world.

[meerkat2]

Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776

This is amazing ...



Here we see the power of death is not simply in its ability to kill, but to hold the dead. In order for Christ to truly be victorious over death and for death to be swallowed up in victory, not only must no one die anymore, but no one can remain dead either. I hear so many say the second death is forever, That those who die the second death remain dead for ever. That the power of the grave will continue to hold sway over the majority of Gods creation even after it is said to have been defeated. As if Christ can defeat death but not the power of death, when they are one and the same thing.

Even annihilationism is not in accord with the message of the bible. Though it is far less monstrous than the concept of ET, it never the less puts forth that the power of death will never be defeated but will hold sway for ever over the vast majority of Gods creation. And that Christ will not be able to say, grave where is thy victory, death where is thy sting. The sting of death is to kill, the victory of death is to hold on to the dead. In the end, thanks be to God for Christ our savior, it shall have neither sting nor victory.

Ironmaw,

I agree - It makes no sense to me that the resurrection of the dead is a raising them by the Spirit mortal to experience death a second time. Or raising people, who are still corrupt, to have immortality and tortured forever. The Spirit is about what is good, how can the Spirit immortalise evil??

Resurrection is raising to life after death - if the lake of fire is the second death - being raised to life must be after that death

First resurrection is those that have died in Christ during their lifetime (not the physical death but the death of our carnal nature)

Death of carnal nature - separation of soul and Spirit


Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able todestroy both soul and body in hell.


Lake of fire is for the destruction of the body and soul - The word of God is for the dividing of the soul and Spirit

First resurrection - body and soul is divided from the Spirit before physical death - raised by the Spirit

Second resurrection body and soul is divided by the lake of fire (second death) after physical death - raised by the Spirit

[thrillobyte]

There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

Maybe, just maybe, what John meant by this is a general rejection of Jesus and a surrendering of oneself to the powers of darkness, like devil worshipers who worship satan. They are worshiping the beast--they receive some sort of a spiritual "mark" that tags them as belonging to satan, hence on judgement day they will be cast into eternal torment and "the smoke of their torment" will rise forever. That would explain, "if any man (throughout man's remaining history) gives himself to satan and receives his mark (bows down to him to worships him) he will taste of the wrath of God..." etc.

[ShanaBrown]

He HAS redeemed everyone. That is the GOOD NEWS. Jesus' ambassadors are to spread that good news. God, through Jesus Christ, has conciliated us to Himself. Jesus didn't intercede with God to stop His anger against us. it was God's plan from the beginning to reconcile us to him. Reconcile means peace between BOTH parties. If only one has made peace, it is CONCILIATION. So God is conciliated to us. When we accept God's peace and redemption, then there is a RECONCILIATION.

Just because God works with only a portion of His redeemed in each age, does not mean He has no regard for the rest of His flock. He will seek until the very last one is found and accepts His peace.

Excellent, so excellent it has to be repeated! God is not estranged from us. Mankind being estranged from God and it was His good pleasure to reconcile us all to Himself. God bless.