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Old 07-13-2009, 03:51 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
2,933 posts, read 2,029,488 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobinD69 View Post
God has something in mind beyond us and He allows sin but He will do away with it once His plan is fullfilled.
I agree .........
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Old 07-13-2009, 04:48 PM
 
Location: NC
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Quote:
How can you have confidence in God who did not know when he made man that they would rebel - that when he made angels he did not know that they would rebel. (I personally don't believe a third of the angels "fell" that myth is derived from a scripture in the OT and a passage from Revelation)
Quote:

If God has been fallible in the past - he can be fallible in the future too - God says he does not change. It is a contradiction to say that God is all knowing, but also did not know
Amen.


Quote:
Why would God be grieved about something that He knew would happen? Why would God repent of making man if He already knew how they would turn out?
Quote:

(Isaiah 1:18) Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD ...
Quote:
I believe that this is an example of God condescending to speak to man on mankind's level. It's just like God asking Adam where he was and asking Eve what she had done , when in God's omniscience, God already knew. God bless.

http://www.gtft.org/Library/miscellaneous/FiguresOfSpeechCondescension.htm (broken link)
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Old 07-13-2009, 11:12 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,023,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Replied in red. God did not know that Adam & Eve would sin, though He could have known. It's free will.
God dint know but he could have ??? God just never saw that one coming huh? even though Satan had already fallen, he never imagined that Adam and eve would actually eat of the tree of knowledge. He just simply underestimated that rascally old serpent.
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Old 07-13-2009, 11:17 PM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,023,406 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scgraham View Post
Why would God be grieved about something that He knew would happen? Why would God repent of making man if He already knew how they would turn out?

(Isaiah 1:18) Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD ...
Its called anthropomorphism ... You should research the meaning of anthropomorphic symbolism and figurative speech. Its when writers attach human characteristics to deity. or otherwise to animals as in a fable, for the purpose of communicating moral and ethical values.

You cant say God is all knowing and then say he didn't know something. You cant say God is all powerful yet he doesn't have enough power to do something.

Either God has always been, is and will always be omniscient (all knowing) or else he never was, is not now, nor ever will be omniscient.
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Old 07-14-2009, 09:17 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
920 posts, read 416,293 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
Its called anthropomorphism ... You should research the meaning of anthropomorphic symbolism and figurative speech. Its when writers attach human characteristics to deity. or otherwise to animals as in a fable, for the purpose of communicating moral and ethical values.

You cant say God is all knowing and then say he didn't know something. You cant say God is all powerful yet he doesn't have enough power to do something.

Either God has always been, is and will always be omniscient (all knowing) or else he never was, is not now, nor ever will be omniscient.
Absolutely!! I guess God just steps in and makes SOME people do certain things. Like He had to make Pharaoh resist His command to let HIs people go, or did He just say He hardened Pharaoh's heart. Did He just HOPE Judas betrayed Christ in order to have HIs plan fulfilled, or did He fashion Judas' heart HImself? Was it His original intent to have Joseph's brothers sell him into slavery because of the dream that He sent to Joseph, hoped that Joseph would tell his brothers about it and make them angry enough to want to get rid of him, and it all worked out so well because the famine just happened to come along when Joseph was there in Egypt and thus saved his family AND the Egyptians. Yet Joseph told his brothers that though meant it for evil, God MEANT it for good. Sounds to me like God had it all planned out before it happened.

If God just hopes we will do such and such, or if He just keeps revising things based on what we do, He certainly must be sort of a frustrated deity. And like someone else said, how can we be sure that no one in the future heavenly realm will not get bored and rebel or want more power? I guess He's just going to zap his fingers and make us the way He should have made us to begin with? Those smart, intelligent souls anyway who chose Him on their own.

Anyway, I digress, I choose that God planned for the fall because it is the fire of earth's evil and good that forges His creation into the vessels He proposes to have as His children. But there's not too many of us that will pick that choice.
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Old 07-15-2009, 07:54 AM
 
Location: The A
1,876 posts, read 1,285,860 times
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Default God Purposed the fall

God decreed the Fall of adam and the elect in Him, for the furthrance and outworking of the redemptive purpose of Jesus christ..

eph 3:

4Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)


5Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [ redemptive purpose stated plainly here]

7Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

8Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;

9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Gods purpose for creation was for His Glory through the redemption of His People through Jesus christ both jews and non jews,

Hence sin was decreed for that greater and higher and holier purpose..

All things [including the actions of all in the garden] worketh according to His counsel:

eph 1:

11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

The worlds creation was subservient to Gods soterilogical Purpose..
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Old 07-15-2009, 09:16 AM
 
Location: Little Elm, TX
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I believe the Plan has never been diverted, that God only "reacts" to situations that have been orchastrated by Him to fulfil His purpose. He is not afraid of sin - He simply knows it hinders us from having the relationship with Him we need.

(God doesn't need us.)

Consider David's insight in Psalm 139:

Quote:
If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me.
Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
His kingdom encompasses all of creation, not just the pretty things.
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Old 07-16-2009, 07:47 AM
 
Location: Canada
3,559 posts, read 1,356,780 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Did God purpose the fall of man?
Did God want man to fall?
Did God not want man to fall?

Is the fall of man, the fault of man, or the plan of God?

I suppose its useful to define what "the fall of man" is. This is when Adam & Eve ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thus sin entered the world, and then creation was cursed.

I think this verse gives us our answer:
Romans 8:20 For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope
21 that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.

What do you think?
I debated taking part in this thread as I see the answers to your questions differently then most of my brother and sisters, who like me beleive in the restitution of all things.

I decided not to partake of the thread except to post a link where I have discussed these issues with others on another board.

It was a good discussion, with good points made on both sides.

So if any are interested here is the link.

[SIZE=3]http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5102.0[/SIZE]

Hope it is of some help to seeing what God is doing in a different light or to strenghten that which you already beleive.

God bless
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Old 07-16-2009, 09:40 AM
 
7,374 posts, read 4,023,406 times
Reputation: 865
Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
I debated taking part in this thread as I see the answers to your questions differently then most of my brother and sisters, who like me beleive in the restitution of all things.

I decided not to partake of the thread except to post a link where I have discussed these issues with others on another board.

It was a good discussion, with good points made on both sides.

So if any are interested here is the link.

[SIZE=3]http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=5102.0[/SIZE]

Hope it is of some help to seeing what God is doing in a different light or to strenghten that which you already beleive.

God bless
An interesting conversation. And you have a valid perspective. I just cant accept that God ever makes mistakes. Or that he didn't foresee certain events. If God is truly the master builder, i understand him to have everything in his plan. If the vessel fell its seems its only because the vessel maker dropped it or because he placed it in a place where it would fall. The ultimate Question is ... Is God truly sovereign over all things?
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Old 07-16-2009, 05:58 PM
 
Location: Canada
3,559 posts, read 1,356,780 times
Reputation: 213
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironmaw1776 View Post
An interesting conversation. And you have a valid perspective. I just cant accept that God ever makes mistakes. Or that he didn't foresee certain events. If God is truly the master builder, i understand him to have everything in his plan. If the vessel fell its seems its only because the vessel maker dropped it or because he placed it in a place where it would fall. The ultimate Question is ... Is God truly sovereign over all things?
Hi Iron I don't beleive God makes mistakes either, the mistakes are man made through union with satan. And God foreseen all this, but having foreknowledge of disobedience and sin and being the author of disobedience and sin is very far apart imo.

God bless
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