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Old 07-18-2009, 02:22 PM
 
6,157 posts, read 4,710,760 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Hi Thrill, yes my name is Scott.

Don't let my beleif that satan will be saved hinder you reading the rest.

Not all universalsit beleive satan will be saved, but some of us do.

I gave you scriptures that show satan is saved, but you are free to beleive as you will.
Forgive my initial rudeness, Scott. I did not know at the time I said ludicrous that I was speaking with the author. Let me reword, if I may, "I find it hard to accept." And I am working my way through your article. It IS lengthy, as you say.
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:24 PM
 
6,157 posts, read 4,710,760 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
There are scriptures that imply all three theological positions.

ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION ONE STEP OUT OF HELL
Eternal Death (Annihilation): One Step Out of Hell; One Step Short of Glory
(a great article!)

Intro by Gary Amirault
When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.
Intriguing teaser. Why do these things have to be sooooooooooooo long, though???
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:26 PM
 
Location: New Zealand
2,933 posts, read 2,099,632 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I have pondered long and hard over this doctrine in the last week or so. The scriptural inconsistencies to be found in the Bible between Divine election and universal reconcilation are so numerous as to be impossible to list without the aid of a computer, not to mention the lack of adequate space here. Does this make the Bible totally unreliable--a complete fraud, as the theory goes that one inconsistency in Divine-inspired text subjects the whole to ridicule? Certainly not. The problem, I've decided, lies not in the Word itself, but in the mess man has made of it over the last four, and especially the last two millennia by mangling the original texts so badly that the translations we read today are but a shell--a phantom of what the writers originally penned.

So I decided to discard everything outside the gospels and look only to the words of Jesus. Even then, I fear many of His sayings are not entirely accurate, as certain things He said seem to be in contradiction to one another (if we are to trust the texts).

I boiled it all down to Matt. 7:21, arguably one of the most famous passages in the entire Bible: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven."

Now let us strip away the superflous ..."who says to me, 'Lord, Lord'...." That leaves us with "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" If Jesus had meant that all would enter heaven He would have said, "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I think we can we agree on that. But, unfortunately, that nasty "not" gets in the way and ultimately nullifies the whole concept of universal reconcilation. Remember, I've thrown aside every other speaker OT and NT, since their writings, I've determined, are unreliable, not to mention the fact that Jesus' own words certainly would take precedence over anything Paul, Isaiah, or anyone else had to say. So we are left with those unalterable, inescapable, impossible-to-misinterpret eight words:

Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven

I cannot get around these eight words in my mind. If someone can reconcile these eight words with universal reconcilation without resorting to Paul, or Isaiah, or any other biblical writers please help me to understand that Jesus, in saying "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" really meant "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I would be "eternally' (anion) grateful! (little Bible humor there)
Thrillobyte,

You seem to think the kingdom of heaven is actual heaven - but what I see in scripture is the kingdom is about Jesus reigning with the elect ruling the nations.

2Ch 2:12 Huram said moreover, Blessed be the LORD God of Israel, that made heaven and earth, who hath given to David the king a wise son, endued with prudence and understanding, that might build an house for the LORD,and an house for his kingdom.

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.

Mat 3:2 And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Mat 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

(Heaven was not taken from the Jews - the kingdom is given to a people bringing forth the fruits - the kingdom is about rule and service and it is not going to heaven as a reward for belief)

He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;
Mat 13:38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
Mat 13:39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
Mat 13:40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
Mat 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
Mat 13:42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:44 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field.
Mat 13:45 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls:
Mat 13:46 Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it.
Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,
Mat 13:50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.


The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
Mat 13:25 But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
Mat 13:26 But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
Mat 13:27 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares?
Mat 13:28 He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?
Mat 13:29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Mat 13:30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.


Psa 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Psa 2:8 Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Psa 2:9 Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Psa 2:10 Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.


Rev 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
Rev 2:27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.






The kingdom of heaven was near when Jesus was on earth 2000 years ago - He was the ruler of that kingdom - Jesus does not rule over heaven, he rules the earth, by his elect - the meek will inherit the earth - the kingdom of God (*kingdom of heaven) is the field, the world, that is to be ruled.
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:27 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,299,588 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I think ultimately no one has 100% assurance outside of their own belief that they will be. I feel from what you write, Phaze, that you believe 1000% that you are saved. All Christians, more or less, believe this, but only God knows and we don't really find out until judgement day. Remember, "Many will come to me in that day and say, 'Lord, I truly thought I was saved. I did everything you required of me.' Then will I profess, 'I never knew you. Depart from me, you workers of iniquity!" How can anybody be 100% assured with THAT hanging over them!?

It's not about feelings, it's knowledge and I am not only applying it through my feelings. I was once beaten and left for dead, it applies to those people too and there is no fair or unfair, it's what actually is right and I am glad.

It is man who has taken the verse "depart from me" (among many others) and hung it over your head.

It does not hang over my head.

God is making declarations that no one escapes conversion and that is 100% assurance.
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:28 PM
 
1,488 posts, read 883,016 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Yes, thaaaaannnnk you, Kingdom. I forgot about annhilation. DE is Divine Election. So five, possibly six issues here, with that addition.
I have an idea, but not totally sure what exactly you mean by divine election. If I'm understanding, I would put that in another category since it overlaps (eg. I believe in DE and UR)

Ends:
1. UR
2. ET
3. ED (eternal death, annhilation)

Means?
1. DE
2. No DE (free will of some sort)
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,009 posts, read 1,486,748 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Forgive my initial rudeness, Scott. I did not know at the time I said ludicrous that I was speaking with the author. Let me reword, if I may, "I find it hard to accept." And I am working my way through your article. It IS lengthy, as you say.
Hi Thrill, I took no offence at the word ludicrous bro/sis, even some who beleive in universal salvation find my position on satan being saved ludicrous.
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:34 PM
 
Location: NC
11,031 posts, read 8,605,279 times
Reputation: 1235
Quote:
I think it's important to also quote the last half of the verse, which reads
"but he who does the will of my Father Who is in heaven."

For me as a universalist the solution is simple.

Sooner or later every fallen creature will do the will of our Father Who is in heaven.

But some will first receive what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement.

Any “hell” that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means age-during corrective chastisement.
Chapter Eleven
It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”
Amen. God bless.
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:38 PM
 
6,157 posts, read 4,710,760 times
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You seem to think the kingdom of heaven is actual heaven - but what I see in scripture is the kingdom is about Jesus reigning with the elect ruling the nations.
You may be right, meerkat. I'm just going by Jesus' promise to get us us a big mansion in His Father's house. (which I have not gotten as of yet, BTW, but, if you're listening, God, I would prefer it to be one of those in the Hamptons)
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:41 PM
 
6,157 posts, read 4,710,760 times
Reputation: 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
It's not about feelings, it's knowledge and I am not only applying it through my feelings. I was once beaten and left for dead, it applies to those people too and there is no fair or unfair, it's what actually is right and I am glad.

It is man who has taken the verse "depart from me" (among many others) and hung it over your head.

It does not hang over my head.

God is making declarations that no one escapes conversion and that is 100% assurance.
That is a radical departure for me, Phaze. I must think about that, really I will. But I cannot comment on it now.

Were you really beaten and left for dead?

Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-18-2009 at 02:50 PM..
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Old 07-18-2009, 02:48 PM
 
6,157 posts, read 4,710,760 times
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Hi Thrill, I took no offence at the word ludicrous bro/sis, even some who beleive in universal salvation find my position on satan being saved ludicrous.
It's bro, bro. 58 years "old" and still learnin'. (I don't suscribe to this "58-years-young" nonsense. I'm feeling every one of those years, believe me).
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