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Old 07-19-2009, 07:45 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 2,985,296 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
HotinAz, the context must be considered when reading "all mankind" and in the passages I shared, all mankind is referred to, included. Was Jesus sent to be the Savior of the world? God bless.
Yes Shana, Jesus the Messiah was sent to be the Savior of ALL MANKIND.

If I throw you a life preserver while you are floating in the sea, are you saved? Do you not still have to put it on, or at least hold on to it? If you do not, and not heed the instructions given to you, does your chances of drowning go way up? Even though life preserves are for the single purpose of preserving life for ALL MANKIND who are drowning in the seas, is there not some effort of your part?

Jesus was sent to ALL MANKIND. His Blood is great enough to cover the sins of ALL MANKIND. Sadly, most will not listen to the instructions given to them to apply It to their lives. His Words, if taken from the Word, are the instructions. They are how we are supposed to live, act, and represent, the Kingdom to which we belong.

So, there will be no second chances for those who call Him Lord, Lord and do not do what He says and our Father says. He is our King, and He said so. For myself, that is good enough.

I don't need to post endless links to other men's works. For every link you UR's post, I can post hundreds that talk that ET is the correct doctrine. I personally believe both are false, but that is my opinion, based upon the Word of my King and my own understanding thus far.
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Old 07-19-2009, 07:56 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,999 posts, read 1,608,486 times
Reputation: 219
Default The fallacy of "free will"

Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Yes Shana, Jesus the Messiah was sent to be the Savior of ALL MANKIND.

If I throw you a life preserver while you are floating in the sea, are you saved? Do you not still have to put it on, or at least hold on to it? If you do not, and not heed the instructions given to you, does your chances of drowning go way up? Even though life preserves are for the single purpose of preserving life for ALL MANKIND who are drowning in the seas, is there not some effort of your part?

Jesus was sent to ALL MANKIND. His Blood is great enough to cover the sins of ALL MANKIND. Sadly, most will not listen to the instructions given to them to apply It to their lives. His Words, if taken from the Word, are the instructions. They are how we are supposed to live, act, and represent, the Kingdom to which we belong.

So, there will be no second chances for those who call Him Lord, Lord and do not do what He says and our Father says. He is our King, and He said so. For myself, that is good enough.

I don't need to post endless links to other men's works. For every link you UR's post, I can post hundreds that talk that ET is the correct doctrine. I personally believe both are false, but that is my opinion, based upon the Word of my King and my own understanding thus far.
You are right there is no second chance.
There is no first chance either.
God doesn't save anyone by chance.
God will save everyone on purpose, according to His perfect timing for each individual.

THE FALLACY OF “FREE WILL”
Copy and paste into Google
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE or click on
Concordant Expositions (html format) - His Achievement Are We
The introduction at the beginning of each chapter is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.

Pride says, "I got myself saved by properly cooperating with God."

Humility says, "God laid hold on me by His saving grace and CAUSED Jesus to be "choice" in my heart no thanks to myself at all; just like He did for Saul of Tarsus who became the apostle Paul when a light from heaven blinded him and Jesus said, “I am Jesus Whom you are persecuting.” And Paul said, “Lord, what will you have me do.”

Our conversion may not be anywhere near as dramatic as Paul's but IMHO it is no less a 100% accomplishment of God's grace alone plus nothing.

God's grace can temporarily be resisted to teach lessons.
But God's grace can NEVER be defeated.

God’s desire, and ability, and intention to eventually save all fallen creatures from everything from which they need to be saved will SUPERCEED the will of the most stubborn of sinners because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross.

If God is really not willing that any perish, then why will they perish? Don't talk to me about free will. "No man can come to Me," Jesus said, "except the Father draw him" (John 6:44). Salvation is indeed a gift from God, sovereignly given, to whomever God chooses, when He chooses, and He will indeed grant it to all mankind, in due time (Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). It does not depend on man's acceptance. Left to themselves, no man would ever choose God (Rom. 3:10-11). At the present time, God bestows benefits of life, food, health, rain, etc, to saints and sinners alike (Acts 17:25). He also has ordained for all mankind to experience a portion of both good and evil as well. The experiences of life are all preparatory to, and in anticipation of, our eternal life with God.

Some say all are given equal opportunity . . . "? Not so! This is patently untrue. The Scriptures clearly show that all mankind was plunged into its present state of being lost by the actions of one man, Adam (Rom. 5:12). All mankind are born sinners. In the history of the world, very few of mankind have ever been given the opportunity to believe in the "only name given under heaven, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4:12). Salvation is a gift, sovereignly given to those of God's choice. It was procured by the obedience of One Man, Christ Jesus, and His death on the cross (Rom. 5:15-18). It is for all mankind, it is presently enjoyed by all who believe, and will be bestowed on all mankind in due time (Romans 3:22, Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6). God's mercy is based on the fact that all sin has been judged in the person of His Son. God has subjected the whole creation to the experience of evil, in order to extend mercy to all (Rom 8:20). Romans 1:20 says that man is without excuse for denying God's existence. But the free gift of salvation has not yet been revealed to all mankind; only to a few now, in due time to all (Titus 2:11, 1 Tim 2:6).

Copy and paste into Goodge
IS MAN A FREE MORAL AGENT?
Or click on
Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man
or
Free Will and the oh well creed
aboutfreewillnote

or copy and paste into Google
HIS ACHIEVEMENT ARE WE or click on
Concordant Expositions (html format) - His Achievement Are We
The introduction at the beginning of each chapter is not the chapter itself. You must click on the highlighted title of each chapter to bring up the entire chapter to read it.

The following chapter in this exposition specifically deals with the “free will” issue.
biblical studies: His Achievement Are We - Part 16 - Choice and Deity
(for people who enjoy links)

Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-19-2009 at 07:56 AM.. Reason: spacing
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Old 07-19-2009, 08:20 AM
 
Location: NC
11,653 posts, read 9,120,138 times
Reputation: 1274
Quote:
Yes Shana, Jesus the Messiah was sent to be the Savior of ALL MANKIND.

If I throw you a life preserver while you are floating in the sea, are you saved? Do you not still have to put it on, or at least hold on to it? If you do not, and not heed the instructions given to you, does your chances of drowning go way up? Even though life preserves are for the single purpose of preserving life for ALL MANKIND who are drowning in the seas, is there not some effort of your part?


Jesus was sent to ALL MANKIND. His Blood is great enough to cover the sins of ALL MANKIND. Sadly, most will not listen to the instructions given to them to apply It to their lives. His Words, if taken from the Word, are the instructions. They are how we are supposed to live, act, and represent, the Kingdom to which we belong.
Hi HotinAz, I believe that God will convince all to grab the life preserver because even our coming to Him is the result of His work, not of our own. He says that His word will not return void and that He accomplishes whatever He purposes to do. Jesus was sent on a mission to be the Savior of the world and I believe that this mission will be accomplished.

Quote:
So, there will be no second chances for those who call Him Lord, Lord and do not do what He says and our Father says. He is our King, and He said so. For myself, that is good enough.
Again, it isn't about second chances HotinAz. It isn't about chances at all. It is about God accomplishing what He desires in the creation, that being the reconcilation of all to Himself. Jesus said that the ruler of this world has been cast out and that if He was lifted us, He would draw/drag all to Himself. He is the one that does the dragging. All do not come at the same time, but eventually all of creation is to be delivered (Romans 8). God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 07-19-2009 at 09:22 AM..
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Old 07-19-2009, 08:37 AM
 
1,565 posts, read 942,788 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Yes Shana, Jesus the Messiah was sent to be the Savior of ALL MANKIND.

If I throw you a life preserver while you are floating in the sea, are you saved? Do you not still have to put it on, or at least hold on to it? If you do not, and not heed the instructions given to you, does your chances of drowning go way up? Even though life preserves are for the single purpose of preserving life for ALL MANKIND who are drowning in the seas, is there not some effort of your part?
IMO there is a problem with your analogy. What we are drowning in is sin which is unbelief of God, even rebellion against God. Jesus came to save us from this. So in your analogy water = sin, rejection, rebellion. If someone refuses to heed the warning to take the life preserver that is more sin (more water) preventing salvation. It would be odd to have water prevent the savior from water from saving from water.

I do agree there is some (much) effort on our part.

Quote:
Jesus was sent to ALL MANKIND. His Blood is great enough to cover the sins of ALL MANKIND. Sadly, most will not listen to the instructions given to them to apply It to their lives. His Words, if taken from the Word, are the instructions. They are how we are supposed to live, act, and represent, the Kingdom to which we belong.
"most will not listen to the instructions" is what Jesus to came to save people from.

Quote:
So, there will be no second chances for those who call Him Lord, Lord and do not do what He says and our Father says. He is our King, and He said so. For myself, that is good enough.
We who believe in UR do not see salvation as a matter of chance or chances. God is able to save a person from his or her sin, rebellion, not doing what the LORD says.

Here is a picture I get from Psalm 107:

|---- God sends His word ---|---- God's called reject His word and rebel against it ----|---- Consequences ----|---- Repentance ----|---- God has mercy ---->

So "the redeemed of the LORD" are saved after hearing God's word and rebelling against it. That was their "first chance". Repentance came after having a "first chance" and failing. Repentance came after reaping the consequences of sin. The wind came and knocked down their house and only then did they think... hmmm... maybe I should turn to God for mercy. So there was a "second chance" in Psalm 107.
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Old 07-19-2009, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,999 posts, read 1,608,486 times
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Default Our greatest and deepest need

OUR GREATEST AND DEEPEST NEED

I believe that, sooner or later, according to God's perfect timing for each individual, God will meet every fallen creature on the level of their greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will.

Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man
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Old 07-19-2009, 09:26 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,498,526 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
Hi HotinAz, I believe that God will convince all to grab the life preserver because even our coming to Him is the result of His work, not of our own. He says that His word will not return void and that He accomplishes whatever He purposes to do. Jesus was sent on a mission to be the Savior of the world and I believe that this mission will be accomplished.



Again, it isn't about second chances HotinAz. It isn't about chances at all. It is about God accomplishing what He desires in the creation, that being the reconcilation of all to Himself. Jesus said that the ruler of this world has been cast out and that if He was lifted us, He would draw/drag all to Himself. He is the one that does the dragging. All do not come at the same time, but eventually all of creation is to be delivered (Romans 8). God bless.


Exactly
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Old 07-19-2009, 09:26 AM
 
6,559 posts, read 5,134,624 times
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Quote:
I personally believe both are false
So then if you don't mind sharing, Hot, what is your belief about what will happen to the unregenerate?
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Old 07-19-2009, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,999 posts, read 1,608,486 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
OUR GREATEST AND DEEPEST NEED

I believe that, sooner or later, according to God's perfect timing for each individual, God will meet every fallen creature on the level of their greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will.

Man Is A Free Moral Agent: Just What Do You Mean Man is A Free Moral Agent; The Sinner Must Decide; The Shepherd Seeks The Sheep; The Will Of Man; I Will Draw All Men Unto Me; By One Man
Both of what are false?
What did Hot say?
I must have missed it.
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Old 07-19-2009, 09:59 AM
 
Location: In the♥of Jesus !
9,590 posts, read 5,312,151 times
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Quote:
I believe that, sooner or later, according to God's perfect timing for each individual, God will meet every fallen creature on the level of their greatest and deepest need, which is a change in their stubborn will.
This is another lie of Satan.....
God does not come down to the level of man.....but He brings man up to Himself, for His glory!
He has laid the foundation for man through Jesus Christ, the ultimate sacrifice for our sin. Jesus came to bring us the gift of salvation and gives man the choice to receive it or not. He forces no one against their will!
Now when some one gives you a gift....it is your choice to open it or not, right? No one forces you too. That is what grace is about!
He reigns on the just and unjust!
His mercy is beautiful and leaves it up to the person if they want what God offers! That is why the scripture says....
John 3:16
For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

....now that scripture does not say God is going to force you to believe and change your will!!
He said, "that whoever believes in Him" there is the choice. Do you want to believe? God knows the heart if you want to or not. He will draw you to Himself by faith, but if you don't want it, He will not make you!!
But what a blessed hope to receive His Son into your heart and trust in Him, is the greatest gift given to man kind.

Blessings
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Old 07-19-2009, 10:05 AM
 
3,553 posts, read 2,985,296 times
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Rodger,

You posting endless links do nothing for me. I enjoy reading other works, and have nibbled on some deep revelations given to a few of them. J Preston Eby is one of my favorites.

I have free will. I have the will to turn this way, or that way. I have the freedom to accept the unacceptable, or to accept lies instead of the Truth. Jesus tells us that the Truth will set us free. What is the Truth that sets us free, Rodger?

Hell fire and damnation preaching served it's purposes. For 200 years this country was the Moral Light for the World. Children were raised fearing God, and respecting their elders. Yes, we did have 2 things which no free American is proud of, that actually has destroyed the republic of ours. Had they taken care of these 2 early, our country would be unrecognizable today.

I cannot see what purpose UR brainwashing serves. And sadly, that is what it is. A cult mindset. I have been there, and done that. It served it's purpose at that time in my walk, but I have since moved on. Want to know why? Because "come out of her, my people", doesn't just apply to any one thing. It applys to anything that comes between our relationship with Jesus, and our Father. In other words, where you plant your feet.

I don't say that as an insult, because Father has you right where He wants you, at this time. To come out of ET, the only logical conclusion would be to go to the other extreme. Like a ping pong ball, going from one end to the other, or like waves on the seas being tossed to and fro with varying doctrines, suitable to the pallats of men on a journey. Why? Because we don't understand God, nor can we. We can only glimpse His Word, and taste little bits of the Glory awaiting.
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