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What I am hearing, Phaze is, "I trust [my human instincts about]God and I don't require [scripture] to validate them. (maybe you mean human analysis via essays, not scripture, in which case I agree--scripture is above all human exegesis). Is there scripture that implies [ET]? Yes."
There are scriptures that imply all three theological positions.
Intro by Gary Amirault
When it comes to the final destination of the wicked, or unrighteous, Christians over the past two millenniums have divided themselves into three beliefs: 1. Eternal Torment, 2. Eternal Death (Annihilationism), and 3. Salvation of the whole world through Jesus Christ. Each of these views can be supported with Scriptures. Having been in all three groups, I know that there are sincere Bible centered believers in all of them. Obviously, all three cannot be true. Two of them have to be false.
I have pondered long and hard over this doctrine in the last week or so. The scriptural inconsistencies to be found in the Bible between Divine election and universal reconcilation are so numerous as to be impossible to list without the aid of a computer, not to mention the lack of adequate space here. Does this make the Bible totally unreliable--a complete fraud, as the theory goes that one inconsistency in Divine-inspired text subjects the whole to ridicule? Certainly not. The problem, I've decided, lies not in the Word itself, but in the mess man has made of it over the last four, and especially the last two millennia by mangling the original texts so badly that the translations we read today are but a shell--a phantom of what the writers originally penned.
So I decided to discard everything outside the gospels and look only to the words of Jesus. Even then, I fear many of His sayings are not entirely accurate, as certain things He said seem to be in contradiction to one another (if we are to trust the texts).
I boiled it all down to Matt. 7:21, arguably one of the most famous passages in the entire Bible: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven."
Now let us strip away the superflous ..."who says to me, 'Lord, Lord'...." That leaves us with "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" If Jesus had meant that all would enter heaven He would have said, "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I think we can we agree on that. But, unfortunately, that nasty "not" gets in the way and ultimately nullifies the whole concept of universal reconcilation. Remember, I've thrown aside every other speaker OT and NT, since their writings, I've determined, are unreliable, not to mention the fact that Jesus' own words certainly would take precedence over anything Paul, Isaiah, or anyone else had to say. So we are left with those unalterable, inescapable, impossible-to-misinterpret eight words:
Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven
I cannot get around these eight words in my mind. If someone can reconcile these eight words with universal reconcilation without resorting to Paul, or Isaiah, or any other biblical writers please help me to understand that Jesus, in saying "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" really meant "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I would be "eternally' (anion) grateful! (little Bible humor there)
"It does not say they will never be saved. It also does not say such ones will never enter the kingdom of heaven. We should not take was Jesus said in Matthew 7:21 and make that contradict what He had Paul tell us that eventually all will be saved and eventually all mankind will acclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God, the Father (Phil.2:8-11). This acclamation is not done in hypocrisy for it is done to God's glory.
During the eons there will be people who will not be entering into the kingdom of heaven (that kingdom being on the earth during the 1000 year millennium) which Christ will set up. Eventually, though, God will be All in all such individuals (1 Cor.15:22-28) and all mankind will be made righteous and justified (Romans 5:18,19), be reconciled to God through the blood of Christ's cross (Col.1:20) and be headed up in the Christ (Eph.1:9).
Of course we have four positions being debated here:
1. universal reconcilation
2. eternal damnation
3 DE, but no ET
4. DE, and also ET.
The biggest objection to DE, I find, is the belief that it automatically results in ET, that's what's really scaring the "hell" out of people here, I think, pardon the pun. In the immortal words of Ira Gershwin, It ain't necessarily so. Just cause some won't make it into heaven (remember, "Not everyone who says lord lord, will enter heaven") doesn't mean they will automatically be consigned to ET. God is a God of justice, but he is also a God of boundless mercy. He has TWO wills, one secret and one revealed. He will have mercy on who He will have mercy. Even Paul acknowledges that who are we to question the wisdom and authority of God if he chooses not to save some?!
Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-18-2009 at 02:15 PM..
So you agree then you have no true assurance to be in heaven?
I think ultimately no one has 100% assurance outside of their own belief that they will be. I feel from what you write, Phaze, that you believe 1000% that you are saved. All Christians, more or less, believe this, but only God knows and we won't really find out until judgement day. Remember, "Many will come to Me in that day and say, 'Lord, I truly thought I was saved. I did everything you required.' Then will I profess, 'I never knew you. Depart from Me, you workers of iniquity!" How can anybody be 100% assured with THAT hanging over them!?
Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-18-2009 at 02:17 PM..
Reason: typo
Yes, thaaaaannnnk you, Kingdom. I forgot about annhilation. DE is Divine Election. So five, possibly six issues here, with that addition.
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Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven
