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Old 07-18-2009, 12:08 PM
 
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I have pondered long and hard over this doctrine in the last week or so. The scriptural inconsistencies to be found in the Bible between Divine election and universal reconcilation are so numerous as to be impossible to list without the aid of a computer, not to mention the lack of adequate space here. Does this make the Bible totally unreliable--a complete fraud, as the theory goes that one inconsistency in Divine-inspired text subjects the whole to ridicule? Certainly not. The problem, I've decided, lies not in the Word itself, but in the mess man has made of it over the last four, and especially the last two millennia by mangling the original texts so badly that the translations we read today are but a shell--a phantom of what the writers originally penned.

So I decided to discard everything outside the gospels and look only to the words of Jesus. Even then, I fear many of His sayings are not entirely accurate, as certain things He said seem to be in contradiction to one another (if we are to trust the texts).

I boiled it all down to Matt. 7:21, arguably one of the most famous passages in the entire Bible: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven."

Now let us strip away the superflous ..."who says to me, 'Lord, Lord'...." That leaves us with "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" If Jesus had meant that all would enter heaven He would have said, "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I think we can we agree on that. But, unfortunately, that nasty "not" gets in the way and ultimately nullifies the whole concept of universal reconcilation. Remember, I've thrown aside every other speaker OT and NT, since their writings, I've determined, are unreliable, not to mention the fact that Jesus' own words certainly would take precedence over anything Paul, Isaiah, or anyone else had to say. So we are left with those unalterable, inescapable, impossible-to-misinterpret eight words:

Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven

I cannot get around these eight words in my mind. If someone can reconcile these eight words with universal reconcilation without resorting to Paul, or Isaiah, or any other biblical writers please help me to understand that Jesus, in saying "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" really meant "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I would be "eternally' (anion) grateful! (little Bible humor there)
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Old 07-18-2009, 12:15 PM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,437,093 times
Reputation: 629
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven
Why do you have to reconcile 8 words that you extract out of scripture and have use them by alone to make your case?

The verse is simple, it is a statement of fact that you cannot pretend and fool God.

It is ASSURANCE that all that are reconciled are converted.
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Old 07-18-2009, 12:36 PM
 
Location: E: (0.00) - S: (-0.97)
231 posts, read 169,720 times
Reputation: 241
I agree with the OP, I also don't believe in UR, there are just too many verses in the bible that contradict it, furthermore I don't believe in an all loving God that loves mankind unconditionally, I don't believe he intended to save all mankind, only an elect few that he predestined before the dawn of time

However, I don't believe the bible teaches eternal torment either, as the bible always states that the penalty for sin is death, not eternal life in torment

Romans 6:23 (Young's Literal Translation)

23for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.




Romans 6:23 (King James Version)


23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


I personally think (biblically) that annihilation/conditional immortality is the truth when the bible is studied as a whole



Why Conditional Immortality is true and biblical


Dispelling the myth of eternal torment biblically

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Old 07-18-2009, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
Reputation: 219
Default re "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven"

Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I have pondered long and hard over this doctrine in the last week or so. The scriptural inconsistencies to be found in the Bible between Divine election and universal reconcilation are so numerous as to be impossible to list without the aid of a computer, not to mention the lack of adequate space here. Does this make the Bible totally unreliable--a complete fraud, as the theory goes that one inconsistency in Divine-inspired text subjects the whole to ridicule? Certainly not. The problem, I've decided, lies not in the Word itself, but in the mess man has made of it over the last four, and especially the last two millennia by mangling the original texts so badly that the translations we read today are but a shell--a phantom of what the writers originally penned.

So I decided to discard everything outside the gospels and look only to the words of Jesus. Even then, I fear many of His sayings are not entirely accurate, as certain things He said seem to be in contradiction to one another (if we are to trust the texts).

I boiled it all down to Matt. 7:21, arguably one of the most famous passages in the entire Bible: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven."

Now let us strip away the superflous ..."who says to me, 'Lord, Lord'...." That leaves us with "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" If Jesus had meant that all would enter heaven He would have said, "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I think we can we agree on that. But, unfortunately, that nasty "not" gets in the way and ultimately nullifies the whole concept of universal reconcilation. Remember, I've thrown aside every other speaker OT and NT, since their writings, I've determined, are unreliable, not to mention the fact that Jesus' own words certainly would take precedence over anything Paul, Isaiah, or anyone else had to say. So we are left with those unalterable, inescapable, impossible-to-misinterpret eight words:

Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven

I cannot get around these eight words in my mind. If someone can reconcile these eight words with universal reconcilation without resorting to Paul, or Isaiah, or any other biblical writers please help me to understand that Jesus, in saying "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" really meant "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I would be "eternally' (anion) grateful! (little Bible humor there)
I think it's important to also quote the last half of the verse, which reads
"but he who does the will of my Father Who is in heaven."

For me as a universalist the solution is simple.

Sooner or later every fallen creature will do the will of our Father Who is in heaven.

But some will first receive what the Bible calls "kolasis aionion" which means age-during corrective chastisement.

Any “hell” that anyone will experience the Bible calls "kolasis aionion," (Matthew 25:46) which means age-during corrective chastisement.
Chapter Eleven
It is limited in duration, and corrective in purpose.
AIÓN -- AIÓNIOS
Matthew 25:46 - “Aionian” or “Eternal”

Does that help?
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Old 07-18-2009, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Canada
4,219 posts, read 1,609,600 times
Reputation: 239
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
I have pondered long and hard over this doctrine in the last week or so. The scriptural inconsistencies to be found in the Bible between Divine election and universal reconcilation are so numerous as to be impossible to list without the aid of a computer, not to mention the lack of adequate space here. Does this make the Bible totally unreliable--a complete fraud, as the theory goes that one inconsistency in Divine-inspired text subjects the whole to ridicule? Certainly not. The problem, I've decided, lies not in the Word itself, but in the mess man has made of it over the last four, and especially the last two millennia by mangling the original texts so badly that the translations we read today are but a shell--a phantom of what the writers originally penned.

So I decided to discard everything outside the gospels and look only to the words of Jesus. Even then, I fear many of His sayings are not entirely accurate, as certain things He said seem to be in contradiction to one another (if we are to trust the texts).

I boiled it all down to Matt. 7:21, arguably one of the most famous passages in the entire Bible: "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven."

Now let us strip away the superflous ..."who says to me, 'Lord, Lord'...." That leaves us with "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" If Jesus had meant that all would enter heaven He would have said, "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I think we can we agree on that. But, unfortunately, that nasty "not" gets in the way and ultimately nullifies the whole concept of universal reconcilation. Remember, I've thrown aside every other speaker OT and NT, since their writings, I've determined, are unreliable, not to mention the fact that Jesus' own words certainly would take precedence over anything Paul, Isaiah, or anyone else had to say. So we are left with those unalterable, inescapable, impossible-to-misinterpret eight words:

Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven

I cannot get around these eight words in my mind. If someone can reconcile these eight words with universal reconcilation without resorting to Paul, or Isaiah, or any other biblical writers please help me to understand that Jesus, in saying "Not everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven" really meant "Everyone shall enter the kingdom of heaven." I would be "eternally' (anion) grateful! (little Bible humor there)
Hi Trhill, here is a link were I give a rebuttle to Matt Slick from Carm concerning universal reconcilitation, it is LONG as I made sure to make an answer to every one of his point. Maybe it will be of some help in your search.

In defence of the cross: Rebuttal to Matt Slick on Universalism
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:02 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 2,939,978 times
Reputation: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by alisonminnie View Post
I agree with the OP, I also don't believe in UR, there are just too many verses in the bible that contradict it, furthermore I don't believe in an all loving God that loves mankind unconditionally, I don't believe he intended to save all mankind, only an elect few that he predestined before the dawn of time

However, I don't believe the bible teaches eternal torment either, as the bible always states that the penalty for sin is death, not eternal life in torment

Romans 6:23 (Young's Literal Translation)

23for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.




Romans 6:23 (King James Version)


23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


I personally think (biblically) that annihilation/conditional immortality is the truth when the bible is studied as a whole



Why Conditional Immortality is true and biblical


Dispelling the myth of eternal torment biblically

I personally agree with your summation. There are just too many verses that contradict both the electoriate predestination and UR perspectives. It would seem to me personally, that those who call upon the NAME of Jesus, as "Lord, Lord", are those who KNOW who they are calling on. But, sadly it would seem that although they called upon this Holy Name, they failed to do the Father's will. AS far as those who don;t know? I think that is best left to Father to decide their eternal fates. Judgement that is.
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:07 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
Reputation: 219
Default Annihilation versus universal salvation

Quote:
Originally Posted by alisonminnie View Post
I agree with the OP, I also don't believe in UR, there are just too many verses in the bible that contradict it, furthermore I don't believe in an all loving God that loves mankind unconditionally, I don't believe he intended to save all mankind, only an elect few that he predestined before the dawn of time

However, I don't believe the bible teaches eternal torment either, as the bible always states that the penalty for sin is death, not eternal life in torment

Romans 6:23 (Young's Literal Translation)

23for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Romans 6:23 (King James Version)

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

I personally think (biblically) that annihilation/conditional immortality is the truth when the bible is studied as a whole

Why Conditional Immortality is true and biblical

Dispelling the myth of eternal torment biblically

Some forum members might like to be aware of the evidence why some of us think that the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation, if that's your "cup of tea" to check it out.

An online book that shows why we believe the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation is ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch.
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED - chapters three and four
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author

There are also several expositions that do the same thing on a less comprehensive scale. They are accessed through the search engine at the top of the front page at http://www.tentmaker.org

For example, two are
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION ONE STEP OUT OF HELL
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

Or
JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORD DESTRUCTION?
http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction3.html

Here is an intro to the book
ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages)
Concordant Publishing Concern
http://www.concordant.org/

Introduction:
"The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.

The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ’s cross. (Col.1-20).

Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God’s purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). “In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens” (Col.1:19,20)

The terms translated “forever” and “everlasting” and “never” are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.

Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God’s grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28)."

From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:11 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
2,989 posts, read 1,572,652 times
Reputation: 219
Default Rebuttals of matt slick

Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Hi Trhill, here is a link were I give a rebuttle to Matt Slick from Carm concerning universal reconcilitation, it is LONG as I made sure to make an answer to every one of his point. Maybe it will be of some help in your search.

In defence of the cross: Rebuttal to Matt Slick on Universalism
Here are more rebuttals of Matt Slick (and other ETers too) in case anyone is interested.

Exposing those who contradict the truth of Universalism

CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal (http://scaredofhell.com/CARMmattslickuniversalismrebuttal.html - broken link)

Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-18-2009 at 01:14 PM.. Reason: spelling
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:17 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 2,939,978 times
Reputation: 570
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Some forum members might like to be aware of the evidence why some of us think that the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation, if that's your "cup of tea" to check it out.

An online book that shows why we believe the Bible teaches universal salvation rather than annihilation is ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch.
WILL UNBELIEVERS BE ANNIHILATED - chapters three and four
http://www.lighthouselibrary.com/read.php?sel=2586&searchfor=||KNOCH, ADOLPH E||&type=&what=author

There are also several expositions that do the same thing on a less comprehensive scale. They are accessed through the search engine at the top of the front page at http://www.tentmaker.org

For example, two are
ETERNAL DEATH ANNIHILATION ONE STEP OUT OF HELL
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/EternalDeath.html

Or
JUST WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THE WORD DESTRUCTION?
http://hell-fact-or-fable.com/destruction3.html

Here is an intro to the book
ALL IN ALL by A.E. Knoch (222 pages)
Concordant Publishing Concern
http://www.concordant.org/

Introduction:
"The blood of Christ is the basis of all blessing. The purpose of God determines human destiny. It does not depend on our deserts. The plan or process of God during the eons or ages must be distinguished from His purpose which will not be fully accomplished until the eons are past. Herein lies the difference between the teaching of the Scriptures and the accepted creeds of Christendom.

The believer suffers in the current era because of sin, but will be released in the resurrection at the presence of Christ. The unbeliever will have affliction and anguish for his sins in the judgment, but he also becomes reconciled to God at the consummation, through the blood of Christ’s cross. (Col.1-20).

Universal reconciliation is the glorious goal toward which all leads. All of God’s purpose is achieved through Him Who is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.1:8). “In Him the entire complement delights to dwell, and through Him [God delights] to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens” (Col.1:19,20)

The terms translated “forever” and “everlasting” and “never” are human perversions which could never have deceived us if they had been consistently rendered. They denote definite divisions of time called ages or eons. All together they form a distinct portion of time called eonian times. Much in our common creeds is true if confined within the eons, but it is most malignant error when forced beyond the eons.

Since judgment is not eternal, but eonian, we may accept all the solemn threats of death and condemnation without reservation, while happily exulting in God’s grand goal to which all His labors lead: that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:28)."

From Rodger Tutt in Toronto, Canada

But how do you know that Alison thinks that the 'unbelievers' are annihilated? I personally don't. I think it is the 'believers' who FAIL to do the will of the Father and through the sanctifying Blood of His Son who have blasphemed His Name by spreading lies and these are those that are wiped out. Annihilated!

The rest? Who knows, but the Father alone. Jesus's harshest words were to the religious hypocrites of His day. How much more harsh do think the Father will be to those who trample on the Blood of the Lamb? Heb 10:29

Following men will get you no-where, when the MAN/GOD Jesus has given us what we need to learn and understand, including His Blood, and His Spirit, which is the Spirit of Truth.
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Old 07-18-2009, 01:22 PM
 
6,464 posts, read 5,003,837 times
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In my further studies of this issue I have come across this:

"The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever" Deut. 29:29

God has two will we know of, as demonstrated in this verse. Now couple that with

"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
(Romans 9:15) which just a rewording of Exodus, "I will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy."

Something profound emerges here, especially in the Deuteronomy passage: God has two distinct wills. One is secret; He has chosen not to reveal it to us. The other He HAS revealed to us in His written Word. At times they seem to work in opposition to each other, but God is not constrained by what our flesh determines is just or unjust. Like polar positive and negative charges, they are in conflict, yet work harmoniously. Hence we could say that God's secretive will is that He elects some and not others according to His own discretion. ("I will have mercy...etc.) and does not tell us the reasons (His secretive will). But He desires that all men come to Him and be saved. (His revealed will). Though they seem to be diametrically opposed to each other to us, and thus violate our fleshly concept of fairness, in God's sphere they are not and do not, but are in perfect harmony in His overall Divine purpose for His creation. God is the only being that can move east and west at the same time and arrive at the center of something. As one writer puts it:

Jesus truly mourns over people who are unwilling to come to Him. He yearns for them to come but they are obstinate and will not come simply because they don’t want to come, but they love their sin more than they love their God. This is the natural condition of all men apart from God’s grace. So He desires all men to believe, but he saves only those who He sovereignly sets His affection upon, according to the good pleasure of His will. His reasons for choosing some and not others have not been revealed to us. This is part of His secret counsel or decretive will. But rest assured that God will act according to His perfections and conspire with His wisdom to do what is right.

Reformation Theology Reading Guide

So far , this is the best explanation I have come across for divine election and how God choosing some and not others can be understood as fair, if we have faith in God's infallibility and sense of mercy.

In sum, I also believe that, as God has not revealed all things to us, there are not necessarily only heaven and hell. There may be other realms God has elected not to reveal to us where the spirits of those who die unrepentant, will go after death.

Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-18-2009 at 01:54 PM..
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