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Unread 09-17-2009, 08:55 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Actuallly, you need to read Deut in context. He is talking about Israel, not an indivdual person.
Ah... so for any individual Israelite hearing those words from God... they are true or not? They are true. Suppose I am an inidivual Israelite hearing those words: Blessing if I obey God. Curse if I serve other gods. Salvation from within all the curse if I return to God with all my heart.

I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up [that which was] broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment

Yes... that verse is exactly what God promised to each individual Israelite in deut 28-30.

Hosea 6:1 Come, and let us return unto the LORD: for he hath torn, and he will heal us; he hath smitten, and he will bind us up. 2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.


Why has God torn anyone? Why has God smitten anyone? Because they are fat and strong in their own gods. He feeds them with judgment until they are consumed, destroyed, dead, perished, till their hgih fenced walls come down in which they trusted.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 09-17-2009 at 09:05 AM..
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Unread 09-17-2009, 09:40 AM
 
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Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Ah... so for any individual Israelite hearing those words from God... they are true or not? They are true. Suppose I am an inidivual Israelite hearing those words: Blessing if I obey God. Curse if I serve other Gods. Salvation from within all the curse if I return to God with all my heart.

I will seek that which was lost, and bring again that which was driven away, and will bind up [that which was] broken, and will strengthen that which was sick: but I will destroy the fat and the strong; I will feed them with judgment

Yes... that verse is exactly what God promised to each individual Israelite in deut 28-30.
Lol. He is talking TO Israel. If you have 90% of Israel not obeying God, and 10% are, and God decided to judge Israel as a nation,,what does that have to do with the 90% that were obeying? The nation is still judged, and destroyed. Does this mean a remnant won't be saved? Isn't this what Jesus talked about? The few?

Last edited by HotinAZ; 09-17-2009 at 10:00 AM..
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Unread 09-17-2009, 09:57 AM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Being punished, being perished and being destroyed by God does not mean one can not be saved by God.


The Blessing
  • Deuteronomy 28:1 And it shall come to pass, if thou shalt hearken diligently unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe and to do all his commandments which I command thee this day, that the LORD thy God will set thee on high above all nations of the earth: 2 And all these blessings shall come on thee, and overtake thee, if thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God. 3 Blessed shalt thou be in the city, and blessed shalt thou be in the field. 4 Blessed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy ground, and the fruit of thy cattle, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. 5 Blessed shall be thy basket and thy store. 6 Blessed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and blessed shalt thou be when thou goest out
The Curse -- Punishment, Perished, Destroyed
  • Deuteronomy 28:15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee: 16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field. 17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store. 18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep. 19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
  • Deuteronomy 28:20 The LORD shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me. 21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it. 22 The LORD shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish. 23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron. 24 The LORD shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
  • Deuteronomy 28:35 The LORD shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head. 36 The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone. 37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the LORD shall lead thee.
  • Deuteronomy 28:45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee: 46 And they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever. 47 Because thou servedst not the LORD thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things; 48 Therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the LORD shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
  • Deuteronomy 28:51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
  • Deuteronomy 28:52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the LORD thy God hath given thee.
  • Deuteronomy 28:58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD; 59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
  • Deuteronomy 28:61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the LORD bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed. 62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the LORD thy God. 63 And it shall come to pass, that as the LORD rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the LORD will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
Salvation from within all the above curses
  • Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee: 5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers. 6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
I am a Preterist so I see these verses differently than everyone else. The blessings and curses of the Old Covenant always came with conditions and when those conditions weren't met there was always judgment...and we find examples of this throughout the OT. The Law that God had given them had been twisted and placed such heavy bondage on the people of that day. All of these curses were carried out on the apostate nation of Israel in 70AD...a careful reading of Revelation will show this. The Jews, as a race of people, were totally destroyed as a nation...those few that were actually left after the massacre were assimilated into other cultures. There is no Jewish "race" today...there are Jews who practice a Jewish religion. While many did perish physically, the point of Deut & Rev is that their way of life was destroyed and perished...the entire Jewish economy was destroy and replaced with the New Covenant. The New Covenant could not be fully consumated until the Old Covenant and all its elements were destroyed. Did this prevent those who were still physically alive from returning to God? No because even Jesus told them Himself...you will not see me until the times comes when you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord! The point is God shows mercy to everyone eventually...and while some are bound in disobedience for a time, it's not forever.
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Unread 09-17-2009, 01:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Lol. He is talking TO Israel. If you have 90% of Israel not obeying God, and 10% are, and God decided to judge Israel as a nation,,what does that have to do with the 90% that were obeying? The nation is still judged, and destroyed. Does this mean a remnant won't be saved? Isn't this what Jesus talked about? The few?
God promised a blessing for obedience, not a curse. In your view of things, the 10% who obey are under the curse that is due only to the 90%.

The promises God made were true for each individual Israelite.

Deuteronomy 29:19 And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: 20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven

Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 09-17-2009 at 02:02 PM..
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Unread 09-17-2009, 05:26 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Dead to themselves is a tad bit different than punished and destroyed. Nice try though.
Punished and utterly destroyed is what it means. That is what God does to everyone. Fundamentalists are going to be shocked to learn that JUDGEMENT begins with the House of God. Those fundies believe JUDGEMENT couldn't be applied there.

Paul
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Unread 09-17-2009, 05:28 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
No, and it also doesn't mean God cannot make dogs fly either. After all, God is God. Our Creator.

This is circular logic. If God destroys something and wipes ALL memory out of them destroyed, why would God then turn around and revive the memory after He has destroyed it?
Didn't He do that to the Apostles? Were they not destroyed. As I see it they LOST THEIR LIVES. Lost meaning to be utterly destroyed.

Paul
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Unread 09-17-2009, 06:10 PM
 
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Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Didn't He do that to the Apostles? Were they not destroyed. As I see it they LOST THEIR LIVES. Lost meaning to be utterly destroyed.

Paul
Uhh, no. They received eternal Spiritual life in the flesh. They were baptized with the Holy Spirit. So no, they were NOT utterly destroyed.
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Unread 09-17-2009, 06:12 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Punished and utterly destroyed is what it means.
With no memory of them. Gone. There is no second chance at repentance, like the UR's preach.


Quote:
That is what God does to everyone.
No He doesn't.


Quote:
Fundamentalists are going to be shocked to learn that JUDGEMENT begins with the House of God.
And? They are not utterly destroyed and their memories removed.

Quote:
Those fundies believe JUDGEMENT couldn't be applied there.
Who? You putting words in peoples mouths?
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Unread 09-17-2009, 09:06 PM
 
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Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
With no memory of them. Gone. There is no second chance at repentance, like the UR's preach.
God says the same thing (the memory of them will cease) regarding His people whom He will judge with vengance, and then have compassion on when their power is gone i.e. when they trust in the One True God instead of their gods.
  • Deuteronomy 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. 23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. 24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. 25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs. 26 I said, I would scatter them into corners, I would make the remembrance of them to cease from among men.
  • Deuteronomy 32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps. 34 Is not this laid up in store with me, and sealed up among my treasures? 35 To me belongeth vengeance, and recompence; their foot shall slide in due time: for the day of their calamity is at hand, and the things that shall come upon them make haste. 36 For the LORD shall judge his people, and repent himself for his servants, when he seeth that their power is gone, and there is none shut up, or left. 37 And he shall say, Where are their gods, their rock in whom they trusted.
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Unread 09-18-2009, 09:00 PM
 
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Isaiah 53:1
But, oh, how few believe it! Who will listen? To whom will God reveal his saving power?

54:10
For the mountains may depart and the hills disappear, but my kindness shall not leave you. My promise of peace for you will never be broken, says the Lord who has mercy upon you.

57:17
I was angry and smote these greedy men. But they went right on sinning, doing everything their evil hearts desired. I have seen what they do, but I will heal them anyway! I will lead them and comfort them, helping them to mourn and to confess their sins. Peace, peace to them, both near and far, for I will heal them all. But those who still reject me are like the restless sea, which is never still, but always churns up mire and dirt. There is no peace, says my God, for them.

(notice in the latter part, it simply says there IS -present tense- no rest for them -as in, right now. Contrast this to the earlier part where God says he will ---future tense- heal them all. )

In the verse following, it is clear that he is not talking about unbelievers in referring to those who have no peace.
58:2
Yet they act so pious! They come to the Temple every day and are so delighted to hear the reading of my laws- just as though they would obey them- just as though they don't despise the commandments of their God! How anxious they are the worship correctly; oh, how they love the Temple services!

(this reminds me of people who argue that universal reconciliation will encourage sin, as they imply in doing so that they believe a sinful life is preferable to one that obeys the word of God)

Last edited by Truthseeker777; 09-18-2009 at 09:18 PM..
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