Short Defense of Christian Universalism (hell, doctrine, Revelation, believe)

[tm55]

I believe that, in order to disprove Christian universalism along evangelical Christian lines, strong biblical support must be provided for Proposition 1 and either Proposition 2 or Proposition 3:

• Prop. 1 -- Faith in Jesus is required for salvation.
• Prop. 2 -- If people don’t have faith in Jesus until after they die, it will be too late.
• Prop. 3 -- Some people will never have faith in Jesus.

All the Christian apologists I’ve heard have ably, and correctly, defended Proposition 1, but not Propositions 2 or 3. I suspect the reason most Christian apologists haven’t even tried to defend Propositions 2 or 3 is that they have very little biblical support. The only verse that comes close to Propositions 2 & 3 is Hebrews 9:27. But it simply says that people are judged after they die (once). It doesn’t say what happens after the judgment. And here are just a few of the verses showing that God is able and willing to restore life to the judged / dead / destroyed … Deu. 32:39, Rom. 11:11-15, Ezek. 16:53,55, Isa. 25:6-8.

If neither Proposition 2 or 3 can be established, then there’s no reason not to take the many universalist texts at face value. (For a list of over 180 universalist scriptures, see Appendix I of this online book … I Cor. 15:22, Rom. 5:18-20, Col. 1:20, John 12:32 and Rom. 11:32,36a seem especially clear.)

My understanding that the Greek word “aion,” and its Hebrew equivalent “olam,” have been mistranslated as “eternal,” “everlasting,” “forever,” or the nonsensical “forever and ever,” is another reason I now believe as I do. When these words are correctly understood to mean either “age-long” or “divine,” then the doctrine of non-believers’ torment in Hades and later in the lake of fire becomes sane and believable.

[Fundamentalist]

It's either truth or isn't

[wilvan]

In Revelation we find none believers will be resurrected and judged according to their works... that's what they did while on earth. Some will be given eternal life while others will be cast into the Lake of Fire to die a second death. What's so hard to understand about the word "death"? There is no such thing as "eternal torment" for humans... it is only reserved for the immortal fallen angels.

[meerkat2]

Originally Posted by wilvan

In Revelation we find none believers will be resurrected and judged according to their works... that's what they did while on earth. Some will be given eternal life while others will be cast into the Lake of Fire to die a second death. What's so hard to understand about the word "death"? There is no such thing as "eternal torment" for humans... it is only reserved for the immortal fallen angels.

Wilvan - it is not "believers" that are in the first resurrection, it is the called and chosen and faithful who do the will of the Father, that are not deceived with false doctrines.

All of christianity believes in Christ - that is what christianity is - but it is obvious that not all those that believe have the truth, because there is so much division between the different sects and denominations of christianity.

[Bloomdido]

Whose doctrine is false?

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by Bloomdido

Whose doctrine is false?

Loaded question.

[Thy Kingdom Come]

Originally Posted by wilvan

What's so hard to understand about the word "death"?

There are at least 3 usages of death in scripture:
1. physical death
2. being dead in trespasses and sins
3. dying in Christ, being joined with Christ in His death, losing our life for Christ

If the second death is simply a permanent rehash of physical death then death is cast into itself. Death swallowed up in more death.

• Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Here is how I see death being destroyed:

• Isaiah 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

In the scripture below dead people are dying and yet alive! Neither "dead" or "dying" refer to physical death (I used to believe this scripture meant that saints were physically dying as martyrs but not any more). These are formerly spiritually dead dying in Christ and thus being made alive, entering into His rest.

• Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice out of the heaven saying to me, `Write: Happy are the dead who in the Lord are dying from this time!' `Yes, (saith the Spirit,) That they may rest from their labours -- and their works do follow them!' YLT

[ShanaBrown]

Isaiah 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.

Amen. God bless.

[Shawn71]

Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come

[*]Isaiah 25:7 And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. 8 He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.[/list][/list]

Wow, that's a very powerful scripture. Thanks for sharing!

[HotinAZ]

Originally Posted by Shawn71

Wow, that's a very powerful scripture. Thanks for sharing!

Yea, keep reading on.


Isa 26:14
The dead will NOT live, the departed spirits will NOT rise; Therefore You have punished and destroyed them, And You have wiped out all remembrance of them.


But I am sure another translation will smooth these words out to be more palatable. But there is hope for those who believe.

Isa 26:19
Your dead will live; Their corpses will rise. You who lie in the dust, awake and shout for joy, For your dew {is as} the dew of the dawn, And the earth will give birth to the departed spirits. Come, my people, enter into your rooms And close your doors behind you; Hide for a little while Until indignation runs {its} course. For behold, the LORD is about to come out from His place To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; And the earth will reveal her bloodshed And will no longer cover her slain.