Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. (punishment, Deuteronomy, worship)

[Phazelwood]

Originally Posted by spm62

A person who says he isn`t accountable to God because God made him do something or God controlled him just doesn`t get it yet.

Well of course my friend does not get it, why would he get it when he is told it is not his fault in any way?

None of this addresses how to minister to someone who is hurting themselves and others after being convinced that God has a divine purpose for all the bad things he keeps doing.

POISON is all he has been given.

[pneuma]

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

He did have a vision. But he also had the writings of Enoch, who wrote of the Atonement first, and he ahd the writings of Noah and Shem.
Abram also lived with Noah and Shem learning the ways of the LORD for 39 years, as Jasher states, and he also knew that he was 'elected', as pr Enoch's dream visions, for the holy seed/Holy One, to be born through the line of his descendents.

Translation of the Genesis Apocryphon from the Dead Sea Scrolls shows Abram had Enoch to read, and of course he would have, as he knew Noah and Shem well. Shem was the king of righteousness who met him with bread and wine, as Jasher says.
From the DSS, Abram writes, Translation of 1Q Genesis Apocryphon (1QapGen)

Hi Ysm, I don't disagree, but all these things point ahead in time to when Jesus died on the cross, they are prophetic in nature.

If Jesus was already slain there is nothing prophetic in any scriptures concerning His death and reserrection.

Slain is past participle not future tense.

[pneuma]

Do you actually believe the ventriloqust doll is accountable for what it does?

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by pneuma

Hi Ysm, I don't disagree, but all these things point ahead in time to when Jesus died on the cross, they are prophetic in nature.

If Jesus was already slain there is nothing prophetic in any scriptures concerning His death and reserrection.

Slain is past participle not future tense.

Since we were already written in the Book of Life, past tense, and all our members were written there and even the number of hairs on our head and our times and seasons by which we would be boundaried were written there, past tense, then by that same logic, we did not need to come into our being in our time appointed beforehand, as the seed of Adam, to exist.
We existed in the Book of Life and all our days were numbered there and all our parts and members of our bodies was already written there by God the Word, who wrote the book; and so there was no need to fulfill what was already decreed to be, by being born, if your logic is true. -See?
We have good works written in that book to do, to fulfill, and rewards for doing them will be ours, and loss of rewards for not fulfilling our ordained paths, but they are already written -that is Bible doctrine

[beloved57]

Originally Posted by yeshuasavedme

Since we were already written in the Book of Life, past tense, and all our members were written there and even the number of hairs on our head and our times and seasons by which we would be boundaried were written there, past tense, then by that same logic, we did not need to come into our being in our time appointed beforehand, as the seed of Adam, to exist.
We existed in the Book of Life and all our days were numbered there and all our parts and members of our bodies was already written there by God the Word, who wrote the book; and so there was no need to fulfill what was already decreed to be, by being born, if your logic is true. -See?
We have good works written in that book to do, to fulfill, and rewards for doing them will be ours, and loss of rewards for not fulfilling our ordained paths, but they are already written -that is Bible doctrine

Everyones names were not written in the lambs book of life..those would be the seed of the devil, who Jesus did not die for:

rev 13:

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Only Christ members, body members are written in that book, which satan and his children were not ..

[pneuma]

Some scriptures are harder to undersatand than others. When the scriptures state something very plainly...you either believe it or you don`t.

So you believe everything the KJV states is correct than as every translation you used comes from the KJV.
Myself I disagree with the translation of the scriptures not the scriptures themselves.

When God said he creates evil..you either believe it or you don`t.

I believe that scripture, I just don’t believe the KJV of that scripture.

Create is bara in the Hebrew and can mean shape but can also mean to cut down.

So in light of what we know of Gods nature what does that scripture actually say.

I form the light, and cut down darkness: I make peace, and cut down evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Does that not line up better with the rest of God’s word and nature?

When God says he is the creator of ALL, you either believe it or you don`t. When certain scriptures show PLAINLY satan asking for permission to harm people..you either believe it or you don`t. Yes, it is that plain and that simple.

As I just showed you above everything is NOT THAT PLAN AN SIMPLE.
You believe God create evil, I believe God cuts down evil, what is the proper transaltion, the KJV or the one I provided.

I hold true independant students of the word to a higher account than I do church folowers.

But, for someone who takes the time to get into the word and really search for the truth, then there is no excuse for not believing plain scripture.

So did you really take the time to search out God creating evil or did you just believe the translation of the scripture you read? Do you hold others to a higher standard than yourself?

Yes, some scripture is open to different point of views.

ALL translations are open for debate brother because men translate them ALL.
The problem people have is they think the translation of scripture is scripture but it is not, to find out any truth each and every word must be studied.

But some are very plain and very essential to the core of who God is. God is the creator of ALL things..very plain.

Only one scripture says God created all things and that by Jesus Christ.
So when is all things created by Jesus Christ?
Was it in the beginning of creation or the beginning of the new creation?

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

All things in the new creation is what that scripture is speaking about.

The problem some have with scripture is that they want all scripture to apply to this dispensation, but the fact of the matter is that not all scripture apply to this dispensation, some apply to the dispensation that is to come.

God created satan..very plain.

No scripture states that God created satan/devil, so how can that be very plain?
Go ahead try to find one, if you cannot than you really should quit saying it.

Satan asks permission from God to bring harm..very plain.

Job is a very hard book to understand and everything is not so black and white in it as you assume, unless of course you believe Satan can entice God to destroy people without cause. Job 2:3

God orders people killed...very plain.

Already stated this but will do so again
Israel of old could not see to the end of their salvation, thus they wrote in shadow, believed in shadow, and knew in shadow, but Christ came and did away with the shadow because He is the light and what He said of the Father shows the Father in a different light then what the scribes wrote of the Father. Therefore I stand on the light Christ gave of the Father and any other view then His(Christs) is nothing but a shadow of the truth.

What they were told to do by God they took literally and dashed the little ones against the stones, then wrote in the scriptures the reason they did this was because God TOLD THEM TO DO IT.

But that was not what God was really saying to them.

They took what was spiritually spoken then went out and killed in theNAME of God thinking to do God a service.
When God tell people to kill others He does not mean for people to literally kill them.
If I make my enemy my friend, my enemy is dead.
And that is exactly what Jesus did, He killed every one of His enemies by making them His friends.

God created the waster to destroy..very plain

Again you are leaning on the KJV and saying its very plain, you’re doing the same thing you say those who believe in eternal torment do.

Septuagint

16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.

Notice the words NOT in those scriptures, God did NOT create us as the coppersmith that brings out a vessel fit for work and God has NOT created us for ruin.

These things are very plainly stated in scripture. We may not understand it. But it says what it says whether we like it or not.

As I have just demonstrated, it is NOT as PLAIN and SIMPLE as you want to make it out to be.

So, we either believe this or we don`t. There is no room for interpretation of certain scripture.

There is room for interpretation to ALL TRANSLATIONS of scripture, there is NO room for interpretation of the scriptures themselves.

Then why even have scriptures at all?

You keep calling the translations of scripture, scripture but they are not they are just translation made by men.
That is why people need to study out the scriptures for themselves else, they will find themselves believing what some man says the scriptures mean.

How can anyone ever be held accountable if everything is open to interpretaion.

Well you can believe the translations are scripture if you want to brother, but I would ask which translation is the true one.
And people are held accountable because they do not study the scriptures for themselves and just take some mans translation as scripture.

You may believe it is a SILLY statement to say, you either believe the scripture or you don`t, but I disagree.

It’s a silly statement because you are calling some mans translation scripture and saying you either believe what they say is scripture or you don’t.

Does that mean if someone says, yeah, I believe the bible, but I don`t believe Jesus is the savior of the world...your reply would be, that`s ok. that`s your belief? Everybody just believe whatever because there is no real truth.
No my friend, there is real truth and plainly stated scripture and we cannot make excuses for not believing it.

No brother there is NO plainly stated scripture, translations are NOT scripture and until you can except that fact, you will continue to believe what some man says.

I understand that you believe scripture in general. But obviously there is certain plainly stated scripture that you do not believe.

I believe EVERY SCRIPTURE brother, I don’t believe every mans interpretation of scripture.

Tell me which scripture you speak of. Obviously scripture cannot contradict scripture. so if you give me one scripture that seems to contradict a whole host of other scripture, than something is not right. At that point we need to look at the one or two scriptures that seems to contradict all the others and God`s nature in general.

Freewill is the Hebrew word nedabah and is used 26 times in scripture, just put freewill in a bible search engine and you should have no trouble find the word.

Just remember it freewill NOT free will.

Friend ,when someone rejects plain scripture, then that is not rejecting a member of the body.

Again I do NOT reject scripture I reject man translation of scripture, big difference.

[alanMolstad]

Lamb slain from the foundation of the world
This means that everything was all worked out by God before anything was created.

All the Lost and all the saved were numbered and named.

The whole story of time was already finished before it began.
Nothing was left to chance, nothing was left to be learned later.
Every person, ever fate, every roll of nature's dice was painted in full color before it was made.

[yeshuasavedme]

Originally Posted by beloved57

Everyones names were not written in the lambs book of life..those would be the seed of the devil, who Jesus did not die for:

rev 13:

And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Only Christ members, body members are written in that book, which satan and his children were not ..

Exodus 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
Exd 32:33 And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book.
One can get one's name blotted out of the Book of Life, but all born in Adam are written in that Book in heaven, from the foundation of the world; and Jesus came to Atone for each and every soul written in that Book -and those of the age of accountability must seek Him who seeks them, and he that seeks, finds, and is born again from above.

Judas is a son of perdition/destruction/apollyon by choice, when satan entered him. Before satan entered Judas, his name was written in the Book of Life, and that name is blotted out, and it would have been better for him if he had not been born, as Enoch said, and as Jesus repeated.
Luk 10:20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

1 Enoch
[Chapter 104]
1 I swear unto you, that in heaven the angels remember you for good before the glory of the Great 2 One: and your names are written before the glory of the Great One. Be hopeful; for aforetime ye were put to shame through ill and affliction; but now ye shall shine as the lights of heaven, 3 ye shall shine and ye shall be seen, and the portals of heaven shall be opened to you. And in your cry, cry for judgement, and it shall appear to you; for all your tribulation shall be visited on the 4 rulers, and on all who helped those who plundered you. Be hopeful, and cast not away your hopes for ye shall have great joy as the angels of heaven. What shall ye be obliged to do ? Ye shall not have to hide on the day of the great judgement and ye shall not be found as sinners, and the eternal 6 judgement shall be far from you for all the generations of the world.

Act 1:16 "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus;
Act 1:17 "for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry."
...

Act 1:20 "For it is written in the Book of Psalms:

'Let his dwelling place be desolate,
And let no one live in it';

and,

'Let another take his office.'[

1:20
Psalm 69:25
1:20
Psalm 109:8


Psa 69:25 Let their dwelling place be desolate;
Let no one live in their tents.
Psa 69:26 For they persecute the ones You have struck,
And talk of the grief of those You have wounded.
Psa 69:27 Add iniquity to their iniquity,
And let them not come into Your righteousness.
Psa 69:28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living,
And not be written with the righteous.


Mat 26:24 The Son of man goeth as it is written of him: but woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born.

Enoch
[Chapter 38] 1 The first Parable.
When the congregation of the righteous shall appear,
And sinners shall be judged for their sins,
And shall be driven from the face of the earth:
2 And when the Righteous One shall appear before the eyes of the righteous,
Whose elect works hang upon the Lord of Spirits,
And light shall appear to the righteous and the elect who dwell on the earth,
Where then will be the dwelling of the sinners,
And where the resting-place of those who have denied the Lord of Spirits?
It had been good for them if they had not been born.

Moses asked to be blotted out of the Book of Life if YHWH would not forgive Israel.

The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot outhis name from under heaven.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

We sinners have two choices:
1 repent that our transgressions may be blotted out of the book of deeds
2 refuse the conviction of the Light that lights every man that comes into the world, and get our names blotted out of the Book of Life which is written in heaven.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

1 Enoch [Chapter 103]
1 Now, therefore, I swear to you, the righteous, by the glory of the Great and Honoured and 2 Mighty One in dominion, and by His greatness I swear to you.
I know a mystery
And have read the heavenly tablets,
And have seen the holy books,
And have found written therein and inscribed regarding them:
3 That all goodness and joy and glory are prepared for them,
And written down for the spirits of those who have died in righteousness,
And that manifold good shall be given to you in recompense for your labours,
And that your lot is abundantly beyond the lot of the living.
4 And the spirits of you who have died in righteousness shall live and rejoice,
And their spirits shall not perish [be cast into eternal death], nor their memorial [name] from before the face of the Great One
Unto all the generations of the world: wherefore no longer fear their contumely.

B-57, I challenge you to a debate on this subject.

[spm62]

Originally Posted by pneuma

So did you really take the time to search out God creating evil or did you just believe the translation of the scripture you read? Do you hold others to a higher standard than yourself?

I don`t hold others to a higer standard, do you?

ALL translations are open for debate brother because men translate them ALL.

Then why have a bible since it isn`t the exact books that were written and ALL are translations?

The problem people have is they think the translation of scripture is scripture but it is not, to find out any truth each and every word must be studied.

How can each and every word be studied if we don`t know if it`s the right word, since it is a translation? Do you see the fallacy in that? What`s the point in looking at ANY so called scripture because it isn`t really scripture,just a translation by fallable man who we don`t know if he wrote the correct words down or not. How do you know the septuagint is correct? How can you trust any translation? What`s the point of studying any word in a given translation since we can`t trust if that word was in the original writings or not? You could base your entire belief on a total fallacy. Which brings me back to my point. Why even have a bible?

Only one scripture says God created all things and that by Jesus Christ.

How do you know only one scripture says that? How do you know any scripture says that, since it is all a translation?

So when is all things created by Jesus Christ?

Was it in the beginning of creation or the beginning of the new creation?

I guess God doesn`t want us to know since we don`t even know if he created anything. We only have man`s translation to go by.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

11Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

All things in the new creation is what that scripture is speaking about.

How do you know that is what the SCRIPTURE is speaking about since it is only man`s translation that you are quoting?

The problem some have with scripture is that they want all scripture to apply to this dispensation, but the fact of the matter is that not all scripture apply to this dispensation, some apply to the dispensation that is to come.

How do you know any scripture apply to dispensation since it isn`t scripture you are reading only man`s translation of the real scripture? All of those translations could be wrong.

No scripture states that God created satan/devil, so how can that be very plain?
Go ahead try to find one, if you cannot than you really should quit saying it.

We can`t find scripture, we can only find man`s translation of scripture. So I could show lots of texts that say God created satan, but you would only say that isn`t scripture only man`s translation!

Job is a very hard book to understand and everything is not so black and white in it as you assume, unless of course you believe Satan can entice God to destroy people without cause. Job 2:3

show me a translation that says satan did not ask God for permission to hurt Job. Even the septuagint ,which you quoterd earlier states that. But perhaprs you only pick out parts of the septuagint to believe and quote and not others. Anyway, it doesn`t matter because none of it is real scripture,only fallable translations of scripture so we can never know what scripture says anyway.

Already stated this but will do so again
Israel of old could not see to the end of their salvation, thus they wrote in shadow, believed in shadow, and knew in shadow, but Christ came and did away with the shadow because He is the light and what He said of the Father shows the Father in a different light then what the scribes wrote of the Father. Therefore I stand on the light Christ gave of the Father and any other view then His(Christs) is nothing but a shadow of the truth.

how do you know that?

What they were told to do by God they took literally and dashed the little ones against the stones, then wrote in the scriptures the reason they did this was because God TOLD THEM TO DO IT.

how do you know God told them to do it? Were you there? If not then you are relying on fallable translations to tell you what happened. They could be wrong.

]But that was not what God was really saying to them.

You don`t know what God was really saying to them because you were not there. The only thing you have to go on is what other men tell you he was saying.

They took what was spiritually spoken then went out and killed in the

NAME of God thinking to do God a service.

How do you know that?

When God tell people to kill others He does not mean for people to literally kill them.

How do you know? Do you pretend to know the mind of God?

If I make my enemy my friend, my enemy is dead.

And that is exactly what Jesus did, He killed every one of His enemies by making them His friends.

Once again, how do you what Jesus did in the OT. You don`t have the scriptures only a fallable interpretation that can can be interpreted by different men to mean different things.

Again you are leaning on the KJV and saying its very plain, you’re doing the same thing you say those who believe in eternal torment do.

Which fallable translation are you leaning on?

Septuagint

16 Behold, I have created thee, not as the coppersmith blowing coals, and bringing out a vessel fit for work; but I have created thee, not for ruin, that I should destroy thee. 17 I will not suffer any weapon formed against thee to prosper; and every voice that shall rise up against thee for judgment, thou shalt vanquish them all; and thine adversaries shall be condemned thereby. There is an inheritance to them that serve the Lord, and ye shall be righteous before me, saith the Lord.
Notice the words NOT in those scriptures, God did NOT create us as the coppersmith that brings out a vessel fit for work and God has NOT created us for ruin.

I see your point. We will never know anything because all we have are translations. So no need to quote scripture because you aren`t really quoting scripture only a translation that you choose to believe.

As I have just demonstrated, it is NOT as PLAIN and SIMPLE as you want to make it out to be.

wow it sure isn`t. Nothing is plain and simple...it`s nothing but confusion

There is room for interpretation to ALL TRANSLATIONS of scripture, there is NO room for interpretation of the scriptures themselves.

We don`t have the scriptures , so who knows what anything says or means. It`s ALL open to interpretation. So I don`t know why you bothered quoting the septuagint and stating that no scripture says God didn`t create satan or Jesus made his enemies his friends etc. because using your own ideology you don`t really know that. All you have according to you is fallable interpretations that can be interpreted differently.

You keep calling the translations of scripture, scripture but they are not they are just translation made by men.

All of your beliefs are on sifting sand because everything you believe is based on what man has written down.

That is why people need to study out the scriptures for themselves else, they will find themselves believing what some man says the scriptures mean.

What scriptures? All we have are translations. EVERYTHING you believe is what some man says the scripture means. Unless you have the original text.

Well you can believe the translations are scripture if you want to brother, but I would ask which translation is the true one.

That`s what I would like to ask you. Which one? The one you choose to read?

And people are held accountable because they do not study the scriptures for themselves and just take some mans translation as scripture.

Then they can`t be held accountable because they don`t have the actual scriptures. All we have are translations.

It’s a silly statement because you are calling some mans translation scripture and saying you either believe what they say is scripture or you don’t.

Isn`t that what you have done? You keep talking about studying scripture but then you turn around and say it`s all man`s translation. You don`t have the original text, so what exactly are you studying?

No brother there is NO plainly stated scripture, translations are NOT scripture and until you can except that fact, you will continue to believe what some man says.

Do you have the original text (scripture)? If you don`t then you too are continuing to believe what some man says.

I believe EVERY SCRIPTURE brother, I don’t believe every mans interpretation of scripture.

You don`t have the scripture brother,only translations of it.
So what is it you are believing?

Freewill is the Hebrew word nedabah and is used 26 times in scripture, just put freewill in a bible search engine and you should have no trouble find the word.

How do you know that word is used in scripture? It is only used in your translation.

Just remember it freewill NOT free will.

It doesn`t matter.....free will...freewill...free willy. it`s all open to interpretation.

]Again I do NOT reject scripture I reject man translation of scripture, big difference.

sounds like you`ve been believing a translation to me. Let me know when you find the real scripture..the original writings and not a translation of it.

[alanMolstad]

The book of life
And the Lamb's book of Life.

The book of Life?
I understand this to mean just the record of everyone that has ever lived and done anything..
To be blotted out of the Book of Life , to me this is just talking about death. To die. to be taken off the list of people alive.


The Lamb's book of life?
I understand this is just a listing of all the Saved.
The book was all filled in and finished before the world began.
Nothing was unknown by God.
Everyone who would be saved was named and numbered before the creation was started.