on threads about universalism (Sodom, preach, believing, sinned)
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I think making a comparison between God and Hitler/Stalin is grievous. God CANNOT commit an injustice under ANY circumstances, regardless of how unjust it might appear to us mortals. We see God condemning humans to eternal torment and pass judgement on Him without first recognizing that their crime, the total rejection of Jesus' precious sacrifice---God's own "flesh and blood" so to speak---is an unspeakably heinous act of cosmic proportions, fully deserving of ET. In terms of comparing the value of gifts, someone who rejects a drunk's gift of his p*sspot cannot even begin to be compared to someone slinging the King of Sweden's gift of a 1000 YO family heirloom into a cesspool. And yet, that last act cannot even be called infinitessimal, so minute is it in comparison with the rejection of Jesus.
Thrillobyte,
The doctrine of eternal torment means that a lot of people (billions and billions) who have never heard of Christ will be eternally tormented - they never had the chance to accept or reject him. A lot of others are deceived and blinded (we are told that in scripture) - if someone is blinded or deceived they do not have the capacity to make that choice.
To me it is important that we can trust what God says -
Luk 6:35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Luk 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
God CANNOT commit an injustice under ANY circumstances, regardless of how unjust it might appear to us mortals. We see God condemning humans to eternal torment and pass judgement on Him without first recognizing that their crime, the total rejection of Jesus' precious sacrifice---God's own "flesh and blood" so to speak---is an unspeakably heinous act of cosmic proportions, fully deserving of ET.
I agree God cannot commit any injustice. That is why God cannot send people to eternal torment. Consider those who never even heard of Jesus or His sacrifice. How can they reject something they never heard of? Yet according to orthodoxy they will be burning forever and that is fair.
I know there is the Romans 1 excuse: God has given evidence through creation so they should have known better. Sure evidence of creation provides proof there is a God. But it tells us NOTHING about Jesus coming to be a sacrifice for our sin. That can only be learned by hearing the word. Many have never heard the word.
Now if we say, "those who have never heard will not be judged for that"... what the heck are we doing evangelizing to the lost? If they don't hear the "good news", then they are only accountable for what they know (which might not be much). But if we tell them the "good news", now they are liable to be sent to hell for rejection of Christ! How is that good news?
Is this like the movie the ring? Hear this message and in seven days you will be sent to HELL! That's the GOOD NEWS!
I agree God cannot commit any injustice. That is why God cannot send people to eternal torment. Consider those who never even heard of Jesus or His sacrifice. How can they reject something they never heard of? Yet according to orthodoxy they will be burning forever and that is fair.
I know there is the Romans 1 excuse: God has given evidence through creation so they should have known better. Sure evidence of creation provides proof there is a God. But it tells us NOTHING about Jesus coming to be a sacrifice for our sin. That can only be learned by hearing the word. Many have never heard the word.
Now if we say, "those who have never heard will not be judged for that"... what the heck are we doing evangelizing to the lost? If they don't hear the "good news", then they are only accountable for what they know (which might not be much). But if we tell them the "good news", now they are liable to be sent to hell for rejection of Christ! How is that good news?
Is this like the movie the ring? Hear this message and in seven days you will be sent to HELL! That's the GOOD NEWS!
If I don't hear from you any more here of CD, i want to say i have been blessed by you rational and friendly approach in the face of so much irrational and hateful condemnation. I think God for people like you and my other friends who fight for the truth here on CD, and i will miss you friend and brother if and when you leave.
I will stay in the forum, but I shared all my "knowledge", it was basically the same infos others already provides, what's the purpose of saying the same things again and again? - what can I or any other say new, what have not already been said? Will the 1000th article about Greek words change the mind of thise who didn't care about the previous 999 articles?
I agree God cannot commit any injustice. That is why God cannot send people to eternal torment. Consider those who never even heard of Jesus or His sacrifice. How can they reject something they never heard of? Yet according to orthodoxy they will be burning forever and that is fair.
I know there is the Romans 1 excuse: God has given evidence through creation so they should have known better. Sure evidence of creation provides proof there is a God. But it tells us NOTHING about Jesus coming to be a sacrifice for our sin. That can only be learned by hearing the word. Many have never heard the word.
Now if we say, "those who have never heard will not be judged for that"... what the heck are we doing evangelizing to the lost? If they don't hear the "good news", then they are only accountable for what they know (which might not be much). But if we tell them the "good news", now they are liable to be sent to hell for rejection of Christ! How is that good news?
Is this like the movie the ring? Hear this message and in seven days you will be sent to HELL! That's the GOOD NEWS!
Sorry for the rant...
omission of the law does not prove innocence that is the "good person" arguement. And yes those who "haven't heard the "good news" will be judged for that it's in the bible.
"Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the LORD of hosts."
21(C) "You have heard that it was said to those of old,(D) 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable(E) to judgment.' 22But I say to you that(F) everyone who is angry with his brother[a] will be liable(G) to judgment; whoever insults[b] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to(H) the hell[c] of fire.
omission of the law does not prove innocence that is the "good person" arguement. And yes those who "haven't heard the "good news" will be judged for that it's in the bible.
"Then I will draw near to you for judgment. I will be a swift witness against the sorcerers, against the adulterers, against those who swear falsely, against those who oppress the hired worker in his wages, the widow and the fatherless, against those who thrust aside the sojourner, and do not fear me, says the LORD of hosts."
21(C) "You have heard that it was said to those of old,(D) 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable(E) to judgment.' 22But I say to you that(F) everyone who is angry with his brother[a] will be liable(G) to judgment; whoever insults[b] his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to(H) the hell[c] of fire.
I agree everyone will be judged. They will all be judged according to what they knew and did.
Don't confuse judgment with "eternal hell of fire and torture".
You do realize the literal "hell" reading of Matt 5:21 is absurd. If I call someone a fool, I go to hell, but if I insult someone (Geewhiz isn't calling someone a fool insulting?) I only go before the council of the Sanhedrin. Hmm, I guess I should make sure when I want to insult someone I call them something other than "fool"......
Its not hellfire in Matt 5:21. Its Gehenna - the literal valley of Hinom where they threw the bodies of criminals to be burned up and disposed of.
Matt 5:21 is talking about different kinds of judgment. You will be judged according to your works. Yet you will be saved, so as through fire. Salvation is by God's grace, and is completely up to God.
I think making a comparison between God and Hitler/Stalin is grievous. God CANNOT commit an injustice under ANY circumstances, regardless of how unjust it might appear to us mortals.
Quote:
We see God condemning humans to eternal torment and pass judgement on Him without first recognizing that their crime, the total rejection of Jesus' precious sacrifice---God's own "flesh and blood" so to speak---is an unspeakably heinous act of cosmic proportions, fully deserving of ET
. In terms of comparing the value of gifts, someone who rejects a drunk's gift of his p*sspot cannot even begin to be compared to someone slinging the King of Sweden's gift of a 1000 YO family heirloom into a cesspool. And yet, that last act cannot even be called infinitessimal, so minute is it in comparison with the rejection of Jesus.
Yet we are told that those who do believe in Jesus only do so because God elected them then dragged them to the cross and gave them faith to believe and them worked in them to will and to do his good pleasure. Jesus even asked god to forgive the very people who murdered him saying they didn't know what they were doing, while Paul tells us that if they had known they wouldn't have done it. I guess its just more biblical contradictions right? Think about it ...
Last edited by Ironmaw1776; 07-23-2009 at 12:14 PM..
Luke 12:48
and he who, not having known, and having done things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few; and to every one to whom much was given, much shall be required from him; and to whom they did commit much, more abundantly they will ask of him.
So someone who is deceived, to whom God has not revealed the truth concerning his son through the spirit, shall be beaten with few stripes. Yet we are told by modern day christians that they will burn in hellfire for all eternity ...
I agree everyone will be judged. They will all be judged according to what they knew and did.
Don't confuse judgment with "eternal hell of fire and torture".
You do realize the literal "hell" reading of Matt 5:21 is absurd. If I call someone a fool, I go to hell, but if I insult someone (Geewhiz isn't calling someone a fool insulting?) I only go before the council of the Sanhedrin. Hmm, I guess I should make sure when I want to insult someone I call them something other than "fool"......
Its not hellfire in Matt 5:21. Its Gehenna - the literal valley of Hinom where they threw the bodies of criminals to be burned up and disposed of.
Matt 5:21 is talking about different kinds of judgment. You will be judged according to your works. Yet you will be saved, so as through fire. Salvation is by God's grace, and is completely up to God.
WWWhat I say what are you talking about... okay now I know you got your cool encodor ring out a box of trix right? and now you know what verses are literal and which are figurative LUUUCKYY! I call bull you are pulling that out of the air or some UR web page by some reformed Dr of excussalogy. so the valley of Hinom is literal but anger towards your brother isn't how so what about:But I say to you that(A) everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart. Is that another one of those crazy figurative ideas when Jesus high fives and says but not really.
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