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Old 07-25-2009, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,744,628 times
Reputation: 245

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I would like to start a new thread specifically about both the negative and positive sides of my testimony in case it might be a help to other members, or surfers, or lurkers, of this forum who have, or are experiencing what I went through for similar reasons.

I'm 70 years old, and had I known that evidence existed that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible does not teach that anyone will suffer forever I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love an endless-hell god.

THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF MY TESTIMONY

From my earliest memories of my childhood I was taught by my parents and Sunday School teachers and pastors that if I didn't believe the Bible is the word of God then God will throw me into hell fire after I died where I would suffer forever. These were the people on whom I relied to tell me the truth, and I was afraid not to believe them.

If I had not been taught that about the Bible I am sure that I would have chosen to live out my life as an agnostic, rather than put my trust in a book that taught that there is a god who is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of suffering forever.

I think that probably most of the agnosticim in this world is caused by people choosing to live out their lives as agnostics, rather than put their trust in a book that teaches such a god as the ETers (eternal tomentors) claim to love and worship.

Many agnostics are decent people who try their best to be as good as they can be simply because they want to treat other people with love and respect, the same way that they would like to be treated too. But they would rather live out their life and die in the hope that they will find out that God is not like the eternal tormentors claim He is.

This has become my attitude too. Were it not for the fact that I have discovered evidence that the Bible does not teach an ET god, then I too would rather live out my life as an agnostic and hope for the best after I die, rather than pretend to love and respect an eternal hell god.

When I was seven my stepmother lit a fire in a beaker and said to me, "If you don't open your heart's door to Jesus and invite Him in, God is going to put you into a fire much bigger and hotter than that after you die and He will never ever let you get out of it.”

So in my heart I prayed the way she said that I had to.

Awhile later she said it's obvious that you still are not saved because you are still such a bad boy.

At that point in time I felt totally hopeless, and I was sure that God had given up on me.

My Dad used to beat me with a bamboo cane repeatedly shouting "In Jesus Name, in Jesus Name," until the welts on my legs would bleed. He told me that it was easy to tell at an early age that I was going to go to hell.

Then they both sent me away to a foster home because they could no longer cope with my bad behavior. My real mother had died giving birth to me. My Dad's second wife had died at child birth too but the child did not live either.

So at the age of seven I became convinced that everyone had given up on me, including God.

Later, at the age of 28 (I'm 70 now) I began a twelve year nervous breakdown over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever. I was only able to recover by learning that there are no verses in the Bible that teach endless suffering in hell for anyone. See
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
Bible Threatenings Explained

THE POSITIVE SIDE OF MY TESTIMONY

Now I’m a Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist.

Before you brush off my assertion by saying “there is no such a thing,” think about the following.

MY TRIBUTE TO RAY PRINZING
Ray Prinzing is my hero and mentor.
His many writings can be Googled up and read online.
Just type in Ray Prinzing.

During my twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) caused by my inability to emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever in hell, every morning, as I washed my family’s dishes, I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing’s many tapes.

I have listened to 178 of them several times, and 23 of them many times
In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH and gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.

Many people have a hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.

Ray Prinzing is that hero to me.

For several years my 96 year old dad called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing’s writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray’s tapes.

As I listened to Ray’s tapes during my nervous breakdown (1966-78) I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation. (I’m 70 years old now)

My panic attacks completely stopped.

And now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that I have a lot of evidence that the info I post has helped, and is helping many other people in the same way that it helped me.

Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but his influence is so wide spread that he will not be forgotten on this earth for many, many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!

Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-25-2009 at 07:48 AM.. Reason: spacing

 
Old 07-25-2009, 12:07 PM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 13,825,686 times
Reputation: 1323
Thank you for sharing this Rodger. May God continue to fill your life the truth of His healing love. I have also been blessed by the writings and insights of Ray Prinzing. God bless you.
 
Old 07-25-2009, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,744,628 times
Reputation: 245
Default Bonus! J. Preston eby

Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post

Thank you for sharing this Rodger. May God continue to fill your life with the truth of His healing love. I have also been blessed by the writings and insights of Ray Prinzing. God bless you.
Thanks Shana. A bonus was when I later learned that J. Preston Eby was a good friend of Ray. They frequently quoted each other in their writings.

Then I learned that J. Preston Eby's fifteen chapter Biblical expostion of every aspect of Christian Biblical universalism is accessable online under the name THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD SERIES EBY

Reading all of that was a huge help to me too!
 
Old 07-25-2009, 09:21 PM
 
1,711 posts, read 1,565,834 times
Reputation: 179
That was a really beautiful testimony Roger... thanks & God bless.
 
Old 07-25-2009, 10:15 PM
 
193 posts, read 243,041 times
Reputation: 60
Thanks for Sharing!
 
Old 07-25-2009, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Texas
4,346 posts, read 5,571,809 times
Reputation: 843
Keep on keepin' on young man
 
Old 07-26-2009, 06:26 AM
 
Location: Winchester
170 posts, read 168,418 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
I would like to start a new thread specifically about both the negative and positive sides of my testimony in case it might be a help to other members, or surfers, or lurkers, of this forum who have, or are experiencing what I went through for similar reasons.

I'm 70 years old, and had I known that evidence existed that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible does not teach that anyone will suffer forever I never would have had a horrific twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) over my inability to love an endless-hell god.

THE NEGATIVE SIDE OF MY TESTIMONY

From my earliest memories of my childhood I was taught by my parents and Sunday School teachers and pastors that if I didn't believe the Bible is the word of God then God will throw me into hell fire after I died where I would suffer forever. These were the people on whom I relied to tell me the truth, and I was afraid not to believe them.

If I had not been taught that about the Bible I am sure that I would have chosen to live out my life as an agnostic, rather than put my trust in a book that taught that there is a god who is going to sustain people alive in an inescapable state of suffering forever.

I think that probably most of the agnosticim in this world is caused by people choosing to live out their lives as agnostics, rather than put their trust in a book that teaches such a god as the ETers (eternal tomentors) claim to love and worship.

Many agnostics are decent people who try their best to be as good as they can be simply because they want to treat other people with love and respect, the same way that they would like to be treated too. But they would rather live out their life and die in the hope that they will find out that God is not like the eternal tormentors claim He is.

This has become my attitude too. Were it not for the fact that I have discovered evidence that the Bible does not teach an ET god, then I too would rather live out my life as an agnostic and hope for the best after I die, rather than pretend to love and respect an eternal hell god.

When I was seven my stepmother lit a fire in a beaker and said to me, "If you don't open your heart's door to Jesus and invite Him in, God is going to put you into a fire much bigger and hotter than that after you die and He will never ever let you get out of it.”

So in my heart I prayed the way she said that I had to.

Awhile later she said it's obvious that you still are not saved because you are still such a bad boy.

At that point in time I felt totally hopeless, and I was sure that God had given up on me.

My Dad used to beat me with a bamboo cane repeatedly shouting "In Jesus Name, in Jesus Name," until the welts on my legs would bleed. He told me that it was easy to tell at an early age that I was going to go to hell.

Then they both sent me away to a foster home because they could no longer cope with my bad behavior. My real mother had died giving birth to me. My Dad's second wife had died at child birth too but the child did not live either.

So at the age of seven I became convinced that everyone had given up on me, including God.

Later, at the age of 28 (I'm 70 now) I began a twelve year nervous breakdown over my inability to successfully emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever. I was only able to recover by learning that there are no verses in the Bible that teach endless suffering in hell for anyone. See
BIBLE THREATENINGS EXPLAINED – John Wesley Hanson
Bible Threatenings Explained

THE POSITIVE SIDE OF MY TESTIMONY

Now I’m a Christian Biblical Universal Transformationist.

Before you brush off my assertion by saying “there is no such a thing,” think about the following.

MY TRIBUTE TO RAY PRINZING
Ray Prinzing is my hero and mentor.
His many writings can be Googled up and read online.
Just type in Ray Prinzing.

During my twelve year nervous breakdown (1966-78) caused by my inability to emotionally cope with the idea that God lets any creature suffer forever in hell, every morning, as I washed my family’s dishes, I would listen to one of Ray Prinzing’s many tapes.

I have listened to 178 of them several times, and 23 of them many times
In addition to these tapes, I always read every issue of his periodical GOSPEL ECHOES which he later renamed LETTERS OF TRUTH and gleaned many pages of his writings into my personal journal.

Many people have a hero, someone in their life that made a contribution to their welfare so significant that it is far above the influence that anyone else has had.

Ray Prinzing is that hero to me.

For several years my 96 year old dad called me from his nursing home each evening. Each time he called I read a portion of my over four thousand page journal to him, and many of these readings are the gleanings that I wrote from Ray Prinzing’s writings and tapes. Many nights my dad fell asleep listening to one of Ray’s tapes.

As I listened to Ray’s tapes during my nervous breakdown (1966-78) I gradually became more and more sure that I was going to recover. The contents of his tapes gave me the courage, in 1978, to take a public stand that I believe that the Bible teaches universal transformation, not endless suffering in hell, or even annihilation. (I’m 70 years old now)

My panic attacks completely stopped.

And now I spend most of my time offering people, in various ways, the information that helped me recover and helps me stayed recovered, and I am pleased to report that I have a lot of evidence that the info I post has helped, and is helping many other people in the same way that it helped me.

Ray Prinzing has now passed on, but his influence is so wide spread that he will not be forgotten on this earth for many, many years, if ever. And that is a very good thing!
*
I understand this point of view and your experience, I do not agree entirely.
I have never read the bible through a doctrinal framework, say for instance Calvinistic, so when I came to see that the bible teaches that God has predestinated some to be called, elect etc I did not therefore deduce from this that God therefore has predestinated all others to be lost in hell, the bible no-where says any such thing, it has always only been an assumption by Calvin and it was one he stammered over.
I KNOW that God is merciful, so I cry out to God to show me from scripture what the truth could be. There IS another truth, the subject is a thread of it's own.
However that does not mean the wicked will not be cast into hell, why should they not be?
You do not see inside the soul of a man or woman who tortures and murders a child? but God sees it as it is, we see only the outward man. It seems strange to me that some unis believe God will send someone to hell for a thousand years, He would be that cruel [I do not believe eternal punishment is cruelty] but not so cruel as to send them there for eternity.
What if by failing to warn people they become more and more wicked [as seems to be the human tendency] more murders, more atrocities are committed. More Hitlers, more Stalins all because you have failed in your duty to warn them that wickedness will be punished by hell? How is it kindness to allow a child to set his room on fire? surely you must warn them of the awful dangers of such a thing.
 
Old 07-26-2009, 06:41 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,744,628 times
Reputation: 245
Default I think we do agree totton

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Totton Linnet View Post
*
I understand this point of view and your experience, I do not agree entirely.
I do not believe eternal punishment is cruelty, but not so cruel as to send them there for eternity.
I think we do agree Totton.

The second half of your sentence indicates to me that I think you meant to say "I do not believe punishment is cruelty" without the word "eternal." If so, I entirely agree with you.

Matthew 25:46 should read age-during corrective chastisement (kolasis aionion) not everlasting punishment.

I have confidence that God will know exactly just how much kolasis aionion each person may need to eventually cause them to reach out for the salvation that Jesus has provided after they have temporarily experienced the consequenses of their rebellious sinful attitudes.

Last edited by rodgertutt; 07-26-2009 at 07:48 AM.. Reason: addition
 
Old 07-26-2009, 06:55 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,647 posts, read 1,710,052 times
Reputation: 843
Quote:
However that does not mean the wicked will not be cast into hell, why should they not be?
You do not see inside the soul of a man or woman who tortures and murders a child? but God sees it as it is, we see only the outward man. It seems strange to me that some unis believe God will send someone to hell for a thousand years, He would be that cruel [I do not believe eternal punishment is cruelty] but not so cruel as to send them there for eternity.
but don't you realize, that if God would torture a torturer to infinity, God would be the greater torturer?

what about little children, who were sexually abused and lost their faith due to this, they would spend eternity in hell with their rapers.

do you think, the Jews, the homosexuals, the communists, who were killed in the holocaust, will suffer to infinity in an even worser, everlasting Auschwitz run by God

of course 1000 years or millenia in a literal hellfire as some older universalists believed would be a terrible punishment also, but I don't believe so and it's still a difference between 10,000 years or 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 00000000000000000 years

and this wouldn't even be a second in infinity

Quote:
What if by failing to warn people they become more and more wicked [as seems to be the human tendency] more murders, more atrocities are committed. More Hitlers, more Stalins all because you have failed in your duty to warn them that wickedness will be punished by hell?
Hitler was exactly the cild of the Catholic and Lutheran doctrine of hell, very many Nazis were Catholic, they did what Luther wrote should be done with the Jews, I'm German and I know well about Luther, without the teaching of endless hell, the Catholic and Lutheran antijudaism the holocaust might have never happened.

I have never heard that ancient, medieval or modern universalists ever persecuted their opponents or murdered anybody, while the "orthodox"/Catholic clergy persecuted and murdered many opponents till the reformation and maybe even later

the last section is worth to read:

http://www.hell-fact-or-fable.com/appndx2.html (broken link)

Last edited by svenM; 07-26-2009 at 07:10 AM..
 
Old 07-26-2009, 07:48 AM
 
Location: Winchester
170 posts, read 168,418 times
Reputation: 43
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
I think we do agree Totton.

Matthew 25:46 should read age-during corrective chastisement (kolasis aionion) not everlasting punishment.

I have confidence that God will know exactly just how much kolasis aionion each person may need to eventually cause them to reach out for the salvation that Jesus has provided after they have temporarily experienced the consequenses of their rebellious sinful attitudes.
*
Pardon me but we do not agree, you show your self to be a dishonest person in the way you have quoted my post, perhaps you show dishonesty in quoting even God's word then, how are people to believe your testimony? or know when you are being honest or dishonest?
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