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Again, URists would not disagree with that in the least as I think has been proved time and again by the willingness of many in these forums alone to go to great lenghts to expound on how they see all of Scripture working together in harmony.
Pleroo,
I'm not sure that they do.
If they did, the same verses that have Jesus saying that unbelief will not be forgiven would not have to be repeated.
I was going to ask Paul the same thing about the Bible he owns....
If they did, the same verses that have Jesus saying that unbelief will not be forgiven would not have to be repeated.
But, if unbelief cannot be forgiven, then how can you or I have been forgiven or anyone else? We have all been guilty of unbelief, haven't we?
And, too, Twin, passages needing to be repeated definitely go both ways in this conversation, wouldn't you agree? Like, ahem, the 1 Timothy passage. As you very astutely observed, it's ALL true. That is something many of us seem to be in absolute agreement on, praise God (and I mean that sincerely as a praise!). Our issue is that we don't agree on how it all fits together and I am simply saying that to accuse URists of ignoring passages that don't fit their doctrine is disingenous.
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I was going to ask Paul the same thing about the Bible he owns....
I very much appreciate Paul's passion for God's Word but I obviously feel he is missing the spirit of the Word in this matter.
Paul,
No I don't disagree with that scripture....if that was the only scripture we have.
However, when more is told in other verses, one verse doesn't become more true than another. They're all true...not just only the ones that fit your reason. You see the word "all" and like your mind turns off to any other words from Christ.
God says that "he takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked". How more clearer do you need it?
God has provided a way fom humans to be spared from his wrath...and if you reject it that way, the wrath will remain... He doesn't take pleasure in that.
That doesn't disprove a almighty God, but proves a just God.
No, they must not contradict. So whether or not there are other verses, they cannot contradict that one. So don't run from the verse I provided and tell me how it doesn't contradict the others ones you quoted.
I downloaded my Bibles from E-Sword.net for free but regardless, it isn't the buying of Bibles that is the sin. It is the offering of them for retail that is the sin.
If they did, the same verses that have Jesus saying that unbelief will not be forgiven would not have to be repeated.
I was going to ask Paul the same thing about the Bible he owns....
There are sins that are not forgiven but that doesn't mean they they are not eventually saved. Even the parable of the unforgiven servant tells us that. It shows us that the unforgiven servant is only beaten TILL he has paid all that was owed. When someone pays their debt that no longer have it. Can you understand that?
I downloaded my Bibles from E-Sword.net for free but regardless, it isn't the buying of Bibles that is the sin. It is the offering of them for retail that is the sin.
Paul
I think this might need to be my final response on this subject as I'm really feeling bad about bogging down this thread with this. I just want to remind you that Jesus told his disciples that as they went about telling the good news that they were laborers and worthy of their wages -- and he was talking specifically of the phsycial realm, not the spiritual. You quoted the 2 Cor passage. The word your translation had as "retail" is in the ESV translated as peddler and in the Greek is kapeleuo. Strong's says this:
to be a retailer, to peddle
to make money by selling anything
to get sordid gain by dealing in anything, to do a thing for base gain
to trade in the word of God
to try to get base gain by teaching divine truth
to corrupt, to adulterate
peddlers were in the habit of adulterating their commodities for the sake of gain
This word origin is listed thusly: from kapelos (a huckster)
If you won't even consider the possibility that being fairly compensated for work rendered is not the same thing as a huckster who peddles and adulterates the Word for the sake of making a buck, if you are unwilling to do as LatteChic advised and follow the principles of Matt 18 in this particular instance, and if you aren't willing to consider that you may be clinging to the letter of the word rather the spirit in this particular instance, I just don't think we'll ever come to any agreement here Paul and further discussion is not helpful.
I think this might need to be my final response on this subject as I'm really feeling bad about bogging down this thread with this. I just want to remind you that Jesus told his disciples that as they went about telling the good news that they were laborers and worthy of their wages -- and he was talking specifically of the phsycial realm, not the spiritual. You quoted the 2 Cor passage. The word your translation had as "retail" is in the ESV translated as peddler and in the Greek is kapeleuo. Strong's says this:
to be a retailer, to peddle
to make money by selling anything
to get sordid gain by dealing in anything, to do a thing for base gain
to trade in the word of God
to try to get base gain by teaching divine truth
to corrupt, to adulterate
peddlers were in the habit of adulterating their commodities for the sake of gain
This word origin is listed thusly: from kapelos (a huckster)
If you won't even consider the possibility that being fairly compensated for work rendered is not the same thing as a huckster who peddles and adulterates the Word for the sake of making a buck, if you are unwilling to do as LatteChic advised and follow the principles of Matt 18 in this particular instance, and if you aren't willing to consider that you may be clinging to the letter of the word rather the spirit in this particular instance, I just don't think we'll ever come to any agreement here Paul and further discussion is not helpful.
I believe selling DVDs for $30 and Cassettes for $8 and podcasts for $$$ is a commercial enterprise. That is the fruit I see via the website. I'm adhering to the Word of God.
But, if unbelief cannot be forgiven, then how can you or I have been forgiven or anyone else? We have all been guilty of unbelief, haven't we? .
Have we been guilty of unbelief? the short answer....Of course.
the long answer: How does one come to faith in the first place enabling to ask for forgiveness?
You need to remember, who chose whom. Is faith a gift from God or a gift from man?
When Jesus prays:
"I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Do you understand what Jesus is praising the Father for? Hiding salvation from some and revealing it to others, and that Jesus has the authority to choose to reveal as well. Beyond that, it was the Father's pleasure.
Ask yourself this....why?
Of all the peoples on the earth,...
only Noah and his family were saved..
only Abrahams' faith was credited as righteous
only the children of Israel were God's people
only the 2 Northern tribes came back from exil
Why does Jesus say:
"Many are invited, few are chosen" Matthew 22:14
"But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:14
I do not pretend to know why God chooses whom and when he does.
I do not pretend to know why God just didn't allow the devil in the garden... wouldn't you think it would have been all the easier for UR
I do not pretend to know why Jesus' parable of the sower and the seed has 3 of 4 soils (people) rejecting him
I would have no idea why a Almighty God had no other way to forgive mankind than Jesus' torture and being forsaken if eternal damnation was not at stake.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
And, too, Twin, passages needing to be repeated definitely go both ways in this conversation, wouldn't you agree? Like, ahem, the 1 Timothy passage. As you very astutely observed, it's ALL true. That is something many of us seem to be in absolute agreement on, praise God (and I mean that sincerely as a praise!). Our issue is that we don't agree on how it all fits together and I am simply saying that to accuse URists of ignoring passages that don't fit their doctrine is disingenous.
My tone is not being disingeneous. I readily admit that God desires all to be saved.... just that Jesus says otherwise. Notice the emphasis is on desires.
In theology 101, that desire is called objective justification
"For God so loved the world that he gave...." is\was the objective God has declared the world forgiven
Faith is the other part --- subjective justification
"Whoever believes will not perish" is the subjective
Most will not believe it and will face Gods wrath
I readily admit that God desires all to be saved.... just that Jesus says otherwise. Notice the emphasis is on desires.
The emphasis on desires is putting God into the view of how a man desires.
What some say "Jesus says otherwise" is based upon translations that you accept. I am ok that you accept them, but let's be forthcoming about what is available for all to read and what is primarily only said to be correct in church.
In almost all literal translations you will not find the words of Jesus talking about eternal punishment. Does he talk about consequenses? Certainly so, but the translation you may read will be the difference in whether you see a picture of an eternal consequence or a temporary one.
So, the real issue, concerning what Jesus says, is then placed into the realm of translations. But when translations are seen in the figurative and literal then our consequenses can be seen as not being able to perceive the end (figurative) and them actually having an end (literal).
But back to God "Desires" rightly dividing the word of God is seeinh ehat God does and what man does. Does man save himself? No. So what God will do is save.
Isaiah 46:10 Says all Gods desires will he do. Well, I am accountable for my actions. I am certain that God does not desire me to crack someone over the head with a ball bat and if I do that, it can be said that God did not get what he desired. Perhaps, but that is not what God is accountable for. If God desires all mankind to be saved and God is the one who is responsible for the act of saving man, then it is a contradiction to say that he will not do that desire.
To say that man has free will does not change anything, because man and his free will cannot save himself. If it is said man has to choose, it still does not matter. Mans free will to choose to be saved is still man saving himself.
So, while we can split hairs over mans choices, the issue is does God work on man till he comes to make the choice?
Yes, because that is indeed Gods job, might we suffer grave consequenses in order to understand the choise we must make? Certainly so.
How does Jesus purpose actually mean anything if it is not completed 100%?
Have we been guilty of unbelief? the short answer....Of course.
the long answer: How does one come to faith in the first place enabling to ask for forgiveness?
I'm Lutheran, too, remember? I'm in total agreement with you on the following points...
Quote:
You need to remember, who chose whom. Is faith a gift from God or a gift from man?
When Jesus prays:
"I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.
27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him.
Do you understand what Jesus is praising the Father for? Hiding salvation from some and revealing it to others, and that Jesus has the authority to choose to reveal as well. Beyond that, it was the Father's pleasure.
Ask yourself this....why?
Of all the peoples on the earth,...
only Noah and his family were saved..
only Abrahams' faith was credited as righteous
only the children of Israel were God's people
only the 2 Northern tribes came back from exil
Why does Jesus say:
"Many are invited, few are chosen" Matthew 22:14
"But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:14
I do not pretend to know why God chooses whom and when he does.
I do not pretend to know why God just didn't allow the devil in the garden... wouldn't you think it would have been all the easier for UR
I do not pretend to know why Jesus' parable of the sower and the seed has 3 of 4 soils (people) rejecting him
...EXCEPT that I no longer see these passages in the same light that I used to. Few are chosen TO INHERIT HIS KINGDOM, to be the BODY OF CHRIST, to be HIS BRIDE, and to be the FIRSTFRUITS of the harvest. Those who are not chosen for this purpose aren't disposable throw-aways! They will also be brought in, in the fulness of time, reconciled and made whole.
Quote:
I would have no idea why a Almighty God had no other way to forgive mankind than Jesus' torture and being forsaken if eternal damnation was not at stake.
Eternal condemnation WAS at stake! How could anyone ever be freed from the darkness of sin if the Light of the world had not come to us? The wages of sin is death. We would all die in our sin and there would be no coming back from that. Period, end of story. Thank God that is NOT the story that God has written! He sent His Son to save the WORLD. And we are guaranteed that what He set out to accomplish will be accomplished.
Quote:
My tone is not being disingeneous. I readily admit that God desires all to be saved.... just that Jesus says otherwise. Notice the emphasis is on desires.
In theology 101, that desire is called objective justification
"For God so loved the world that he gave...." is\was the objective God has declared the world forgiven
Faith is the other part --- subjective justification
"Whoever believes will not perish" is the subjective
Most will not believe it and will face Gods wrath
Yes, faith is absolutely necessary. And the human race, dead in their sin and with their will enslaved to it, is completely incapable of faith. It is a gift of God! A gift. He opens our eyes and our ears and our understanding, in His good time. And, He will open the eyes of all for EVERY KNEE WILL BOW AND EVERY TONGUE CONFESS THAT JESUS CHRIST IS LORD. It's a promise. A promise that the doctrine of ET blinded me to for most of my life, but now that I see I rejoice in it!
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As you very astutely observed, it's ALL true. That is something many of us seem to be in absolute agreement on, praise God (and I mean that sincerely as a praise!). Our issue is that we don't agree on how it all fits together and I am simply saying that to accuse URists of ignoring passages that don't fit their doctrine is disingenous.
