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Old 07-30-2009, 07:52 PM
 
3,553 posts, read 2,992,769 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
I would like to hear an answer for this.

Do the scriptures teach that God will eternally torment all or annihilate anyone? nope


God bless.
Yep, sorry. Destruction means to destroy, last I looked.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:54 PM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 4,288,934 times
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I've been a very part time participant to this forum lately. Too much dissension is bad for my soul.
And it's really not because of the fire and brimstone heaped on us papists, we can take it.
But I think I'm seeing that a large part of this dissension comes from the pro vs anti universalist crowds.
For what it's worth, I say so what's the big deal. Either we will all end up singing with the angels, or some will not.
Either way, there are those in this world who know the peace of Christ, and those who don't, and need our love.
I for one can't seem to reconcile God's perfect justice with universal salvation. But frankly I hope I'm wrong.
Perhaps, many in the anti crowd are much like the prodigal's brother, upset that the pig wallowing bum gets all of Daddy's good stuff.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:56 PM
 
Location: NC
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Annihilation is not the same thing as destruction, HotinAz.. The earth is to perish, be destroyed, yet it will be made new. He turns men to destruction and says "Return, O children of men." (Psalms 90:3) God bless.
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Old 07-30-2009, 07:57 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
That's a strawman. I never said or implied that God is like Satan, I said if God were (subjunctive implies God is NOT) like Satan would you still worship that god? It's a hypothetical just like the hypothetical you asked us. Why won't you answer?
Because that would imply something blasphemous. I cannot answer something like that.

ET, or UR or the death of the soul, does not really take away who God is, nor does it imply something evil about God. Even if we think it does. His ways are not our ways. And yes, I would still worship Him in ALL 3 circumstances, for I always have and believed all of them at one point in time.

But to equate God with Satan? I cannot answer that, even in hypothetical.
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:02 PM
 
Location: NC
11,653 posts, read 9,143,790 times
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Eternal hell, yes, HotinAz takes away who God is and does imply something evil about God. Here we have God who sees beginning to end, bringing people into the world to burn for all of eternity with no hope for salvation, and keeps the fire burning forever. God bless.
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:05 PM
 
1,577 posts, read 946,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Because that would imply something blasphemous. I cannot answer something like that.

ET, or UR or the death of the soul, does not really take away who God is, nor does it imply something evil about God. Even if we think it does. His ways are not our ways. And yes, I would still worship Him in ALL 3 circumstances, for I always have and believed all of them at one point in time.

But to equate God with Satan? I cannot answer that, even in hypothetical.
Ok fine... but for us to equate God who is merciful through the ages to a god whose mercy ends, at which time God becomes torturous, is to us blaphemous too. And that is what your hypothecal does for us. What you are really asking us is would we worship a god who is unlike the One True God. The answer is "no". To answer "yes" would mean we are willing to worship another god from the One True God. So, yes, we have "conditions". But so do you.
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Old 07-30-2009, 08:48 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
One of these days we will all get it right! To you on you're journey.
And that I agree with.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:02 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thy Kingdom Come View Post
Ok fine... but for us to equate God who is merciful through the ages to a god whose mercy ends, at which time God becomes torturous, is to us blaphemous too. And that is what your hypothecal does for us. What you are really asking us is would we worship a god who is unlike the One True God. The answer is "no". To answer "yes" would mean we are willing to worship another god from the One True God. So, yes, we have "conditions". But so do you.
Fair enough.

My hypothetical as you call it comes from years of learning. Years of studying. There are but a few certainties that I know, and I listed them earlier.
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Old 07-30-2009, 10:30 PM
 
Location: Small Town USA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
See, I could still love my Father no matter the outcome for those who didn't believe or who blasphemed His Name. I didn't have to make a god to fit my image, I just had to accept Him for who He is. Unconditionally.


I suppose that is the difference between us. You believe this doctrine based upon your limited understanding of who God is. Does anyone really think we feeble humans can fathom the things of God? We get glimpses, not total Truth, outside of Christ crucified. This we know to be Truth. We know why He died, and was resurrected. We know certain things, but we still really do not understand why. Men have tried for ages upon the ages to understand why God would even create a fallen creature, just to have to sacrifice His Son to redeem them, out of His Love for them.

If the doctrine of UR was true, then really Genesis to Revelation was pointless, right? What would then be the purpose? Where then is the free will to come to Him out of burning Love that goes beyond words? Where then is the penalty for not coming into the Truth? If there was no penalty, then all sin is justified before God. If the penalty was contingent upon a time frame, such as a punishment that lasted only a for a time, then the sin was justified and Christ died for nothing. In other words, if we could pay for our transgressions, then there was NEVEr a need for Jesus to come to earth.

You cannot have it both ways. We know there is but one life in the flesh. We know that we must coome to the cross for redemption. We know that we must repent of the sin we once loved even more than God. We know these things, yet there are those who spit on the cross. Yet there are those who blapheme His Name to the nations of the earth.

We ask, how can such things be forgiven to men? We ask, what are the penalties for such actions? We ponder, and seek. Been there, done that. But really, there is only one life to live. It is either eternal through Jesus, or it is temporal, and will be extinguished, forever. There cannot be ET no more so than there can be UR. But this is the Truth that I have learned, and we all must come into the Truth at our own paces, and not be swayed by those who feel like theirs is the ONLY Truth. I applaud you all who defend your version of it, but don't take away from us doing the same with ours.

Even Pilot asked Jesus,,,"what is Truth". What do you think He told Him? Ever wondered? I do, because immediately he washed his hands from having anyhting to do with killing Him.


This sums up how I feel, well said.
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Old 07-30-2009, 11:03 PM
 
1,577 posts, read 946,349 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Fair enough.

My hypothetical as you call it comes from years of learning. Years of studying. There are but a few certainties that I know, and I listed them earlier.
I read your certainties and agree. But I did not agree with your reasoning that followed...

Quote:
If the doctrine of UR was true, then really Genesis to Revelation was pointless, right?
No.

Quote:
What would then be the purpose? Where then is the free will to come to Him out of burning Love that goes beyond words?
I don't find any burning love towards God eminating from the free will of cetain people.
  • Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness 15 Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 And the way of peace have they not known: 18 There is no fear of God before their eyes.
The consequences (penalty) of the above is laid out (for example) in Deuteronomy 28-29. The only escape from that penalty is laid out in Deuteronomy 30 -- returning to Christ and obeying His voice.
  • Deuteronomy 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee, 2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul; 3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. 4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
And then here is where love of God comes from.
  • Deuteronomy 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
Quote:
Where then is the penalty for not coming into the Truth?
For example, Deuteronomy 28-29

Quote:
If there was no penalty, then all sin is justified before God
But there is a penalty.

Quote:
If the penalty was contingent upon a time frame, such as a punishment that lasted only a for a time, then the sin was justified and Christ died for nothing.
The end of the penalty is not contingent on a time frame. It is contingent on seeking Christ with all one's heart & soul and obeying His voice.

Quote:
In other words, if we could pay for our transgressions then there was NEVEr a need for Jesus to come to earth.
No one pays for their transgressions in the sense of paying a balance down to zero while remaining in rebellion -- the debt would simply keep piling up "seven more times" per Leviticus 26. They "pay" in the sense of suffering according to their rebellion and knowlege as deemed appropriate by God.

Last edited by Thy Kingdom Come; 07-30-2009 at 11:18 PM..
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