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Old 07-31-2009, 05:14 AM
 
10,554 posts, read 5,079,962 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotinAZ View Post
Yep, sorry. Destruction means to destroy, last I looked.
Jesus said He "came to seek and to save the LOST sheep of the house of Israel."
The word "LOST" in the above quote uses the same Greek word for "destroyed."

How much destroyed is destroyed?

Jesus said to His disciples that

Mat 16:25 For whosoever may be wanting to save his soul shall be
destroying it. Yet whoever should be destroying his soul on My account
shall be finding it. 26 For what will a man be benefited, if he should ever
be gaining the whole world, yet be forfeiting his soul? Or what will a man
be giving in exchange for his soul?

So if you destroy your soul you'll get it back. So nothing is so destroyed that it cannot be brought back. You dig?
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Old 07-31-2009, 06:01 AM
 
Location: E: (0.00) - S: (-0.97)
231 posts, read 171,048 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShanaBrown View Post
I would like to hear an answer for this.

Do the scriptures teach that God will eternally torment all or annihilate anyone? nope


God bless.
With all due respect Shana, although I personally don't believe the scriptures teach ET, I'm not so sure about annihilation, there are many verses that talk about the wrath of God against the wicked and ungodly, that I just seem unable to reconcile with a God that loves all unconditionally

On the surface of it, the bible seems to support annihilation when you take verses like these into account

PROVERBS 24:20 (NASB)
For there will be no future for the evil man; the lamp of the wicked will be put out.

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. (Malachi4.1)

There are many, many more verses like these, that can't just be explained away easily, I'm going to have to really look into this as I would love for UR to be true, it's just that I'm not seeing it, to me ED (annihilation) seems the most biblically based from the studying I've done thus far

The point of the matter is simply this, a christian doctrine made has to be biblical, and not what we want it to be

I am going to study some UR sources now
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Old 07-31-2009, 06:17 AM
 
10,554 posts, read 5,079,962 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alisonminnie View Post
With all due respect Shana, although I personally don't believe the scriptures teach ET, I'm not so sure about annihilation, there are many verses that talk about the wrath of God against the wicked and ungodly, that I just seem unable to reconcile with a God that loves all unconditionally

On the surface of it, the bible seems to support annihilation when you take verses like these into account

PROVERBS 24:20 (NASB)
For there will be no future for the evil man; the lamp of the wicked will be put out.

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. (Malachi4.1)

There are many, many more verses like these, that can't just be explained away easily, I'm going to have to really look into this as I would love for UR to be true, it's just that I'm not seeing it, to me ED (annihilation) seems the most biblically based from the studying I've done thus far

The point of the matter is simply this, a christian doctrine made has to be biblical, and not what we want it to be

I am going to study some UR sources now
Dear allison,
It is good you are looking into these issues.

The Old Testament was written only to those who were under the law. All the threats, all the curses were due to a covenant the Jews contracted with God should they break His holy law. Yes, it is true that the lamp of those wicked ones would be put out. As far as Malachi 4:1 it is all figurative language. Yes, it is serious. The Israelites were held in a furnace of fire for 400+ years in Egypt. They went in a small group and came out of that furnace with possibly over a million people.
Those people were redeemed and ransomed from the fire.

Christ died for all whose lamp was put out. All the sacrifices pointed to the One Great Sacrifice of Christ.

Saul was out murdering Christians. Was His lamp put out? No. A new thing God is doing in the earth. It is called Grace! Christ met him while he was still breathing out threatenings on the road to Damascus and rather than putting out his lamp He saved him.

Get it?
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Old 07-31-2009, 09:46 AM
 
Location: Central US
852 posts, read 823,767 times
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The scriptures teach us there is only one way...Our focus is to be on the those who do not know God. Doesn't anyone want others to feel what we feel from God? I listen to all this "noone will go to hell" and "many will go to hell" and my heart aches...
For yes, I have my opinions on that subject....and I know them in MY heart.
but where is that love that we are to convey to others?
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:10 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,460,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *sherry* View Post
The scriptures teach us there is only one way...Our focus is to be on the those who do not know God. Doesn't anyone want others to feel what we feel from God? I listen to all this "noone will go to hell" and "many will go to hell" and my heart aches...
For yes, I have my opinions on that subject....and I know them in MY heart.
but where is that love that we are to convey to others?

Well, your heart aches about that, but then I just read a post where a woman will not have kids because of the possibility of them growing up and being in hell forever. Under that teaching she is making the right choice.

So as your heart aches , perhaps it is not always about only love for the lost as the bible teaches us to do good to ALL escpecially of the family of faith.

So when I see the effect of a pathetic evil doctrine of men I will speak out about it. Where is the love conveyed by this doctrine? It's not to be found and it is love to try to help someone see the nasty despicable filth that it is.
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:40 AM
 
Location: Central US
852 posts, read 823,767 times
Reputation: 453
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
Well, your heart aches about that, but then I just read a post where a woman will not have kids because of the possibility of them growing up and being in hell forever. Under that teaching she is making the right choice.

So as your heart aches , perhaps it is not always about only love for the lost as the bible teaches us to do good to ALL escpecially of the family of faith.

So when I see the effect of a pathetic evil doctrine of men I will speak out about it. Where is the love conveyed by this doctrine? It's not to be found and it is love to try to help someone see the nasty despicable filth that it is.

There is only one way....through the blood of Jesus Christ....
nothing you can say about what you call twisted and pathetic men can change that...you would probably call me twisted and pathetic also...
even being so...I would still care for you.
So I'm assuming that helping people know Christ is not a priority for you?
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Old 07-31-2009, 10:51 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,460,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by *sherry* View Post
There is only one way....through the blood of Jesus Christ....
nothing you can say about what you call twisted and pathetic men can change that...you would probably call me twisted and pathetic also...
even being so...I would still care for you.
So I'm assuming that helping people know Christ is not a priority for you?

Your not paying attention so please re-read my post and deal with the specific words I wrote if you want to discuss this.

Making assumptions is one of the problem with those of you who SAY they care so much.
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Old 07-31-2009, 01:26 PM
 
Location: NC
11,623 posts, read 9,023,507 times
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Quote:
With all due respect Shana, although I personally don't believe the scriptures teach ET, I'm not so sure about annihilation, there are many verses that talk about the wrath of God against the wicked and ungodly, that I just seem unable to reconcile with a God that loves all unconditionally

On the surface of it, the bible seems to support annihilation when you take verses like these into account

PROVERBS 24:20 (NASB)
For there will be no future for the evil man; the lamp of the wicked will be put out.

For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. (Malachi4.1)

There are many, many more verses like these, that can't just be explained away easily, I'm going to have to really look into this as I would love for UR to be true, it's just that I'm not seeing it, to me ED (annihilation) seems the most biblically based from the studying I've done thus far

The point of the matter is simply this, a christian doctrine made has to be biblical, and not what we want it to be

I am going to study some UR sources

Hi Alison, thank you for sharing. I believe that if God did not love us all unconditionally, Jesus would not have given His life for all people. We are were all ungodly and wicked until we realized our need for the Savior and trusted in Him to deliver us out of sin and death. I believe that the same God who opened the eyes of the believing now, will open the eyes of all people, and I believe that the scriptures present this. The theme of destruction and restoration is presented in the scriptures, so yes I believe that wicked men will be destroyed but for the purpose of recreation. Just as our old man must die and we become a new creation in the Lord. Here are scriptures speak to the restoration of all mankind to God.



Psalms 22:
27. All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the LORD,
And all the families of the nations will worship before You.
28. For the kingdom is the LORD'S
And He rules over the nations.
29. All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive

Psalms 66
4. "All the earth will worship You,
And will sing praises to You;
They will sing praises to Your name." Selah

Psalms 68:18
You have ascended on high, You have led captive Your captives;
You have received gifts among men,
Even among the rebellious also, that the LORD God may dwell there

Isaiah 25:6-8
The LORD of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain;
A banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow,
And refined, aged wine.
7. And on this mountain He will swallow up the covering which is over all peoples,
Even the veil which is stretched over all nations.
8. He will swallow up death for all time,
And the Lord GOD will wipe tears away from all faces,
And He will remove the reproach of His people from all the earth;
For the LORD has spoken.

Isaiah 45:22-25
"Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23. "I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24. "They will say of Me, `Only in the LORD are righteousness and strength.'
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25. "In the LORD all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory."


Zephaniah 3
8 "Therefore wait for Me," declares the LORD,
"For the day when I rise up as a witness.
Indeed, My decision is to gather nations,
To assemble kingdoms,
To pour out on them My indignation,
All My burning anger;
For all the earth will be devoured
By the fire of My zeal.
9. "For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,
That all of them may call on the name of the LORD,
To serve Him shoulder to shoulder

John 1:1-9
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.2. He was in the beginning with God.3. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.4. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men.5. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.6. There came a man sent from God, whose name was John.7. He came as a witness, to testify about the Light, so that all might believe through him.8. He was not the Light, but he came to testify about the Light.9. There was the true Light which, coming into the world, enlightens every man.

John 12:27-32
27. "Now My soul has become troubled; and what shall I say, `Father, save Me from this hour'? But for this purpose I came to this hour.28. "Father, glorify Your name." Then a voice came out of heaven: "I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again."29. So the crowd of people who stood by and heard it were saying that it had thundered; others were saying, "An angel has spoken to Him."30. Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes.31. "Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.32. "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

Romans 8:18-22
18. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.19. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.20. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope21. that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.22. For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

1 Corinthians 15:16-28
16. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;17. and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.18. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.19. If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.20. But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.21. For since by a man came death, by a man also came the resurrection of the dead.22. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.23. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,24. then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.25. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.26. The last enemy that will be abolished is death.27. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.28. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

Colossians 1:15-20
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.16. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.17. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.18. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.19. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him,20. and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.


Ephesians 1: 5-10
"He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace, which He lavished upon us. In all wisdom and insight He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fulness of the times, that is the *summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens, and things upon the earth."

*summing up=anakephalaioomai=to gather together again in one, to reunite under one head as in Eph. 1 (mid. voice) (Hebrew/Greek Key Word Study)


Thanks again for sharing and God bless.

More good sources on Christian Universalism

http://www.mercifultruth.com/

http://sigler.org/mckay/sovereignty.html
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Old 08-01-2009, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Out of Florida........
4,273 posts, read 3,671,389 times
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Betsey -vs- ShanaBrown -vs- Phazelwood -vs- Eusebius -vs- Fundamentalist -vs- ILNC -vs- HotinAZ -vs- lifesign64 -vs- little elmer -vs- allisonminnie -vs- Sherry -vs- pcamps -vs- Thy Kingdom Come...........and whoever else!

Suppose we have all and I mean alllllll have got it wrong? Would'nt be wonderful to know that we have loved Him "just because" He first loved us? Is this not the message we all should be teaching........that you have to BELIEVE?

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Are we not here............together?
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Old 08-01-2009, 10:46 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,460,623 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Betsey Lane View Post
Betsey -vs- ShanaBrown -vs- Phazelwood -vs- Eusebius -vs- Fundamentalist -vs- ILNC -vs- HotinAZ -vs- lifesign64 -vs- little elmer -vs- allisonminnie -vs- Sherry -vs- pcamps -vs- Thy Kingdom Come...........and whoever else!

Suppose we have all and I mean alllllll have got it wrong? Would'nt be wonderful to know that we have loved Him "just because" He first loved us? Is this not the message we all should be teaching........that you have to BELIEVE?

For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


Are we not here............together?


I will continue to see Gods full character of Love and am not concerned that I am wrong.

I am not VS anyone, but I still have the right to speak my mind.
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