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Old 09-17-2009, 12:27 AM
 
9,016 posts, read 4,397,831 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phazelwood View Post
No he did not have hallucinations.

God never gives up, ever. Jesus will accomplish his purpose 100%.
Matthew 25:41-46
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed".....

Then your conclusion is that Jesus said this it on April fool's day...
Maybe I misunderstood your conclusion: that those on Jesus' left (were there but never there) were having hallucinations when they reply back....

Matthew 25:41-46
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?"

When does Jesus' fairy tale starts: Does it now?
Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away .......to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Based on the arguments for UR, Jesus should have said...

Matthew 25:46
"They go away (at least in my dark side hallucinations but not really), some to my (Jesus') make believe land, but the righteous to _________ life.. oooohhhh nnnnooo it doesn't say eternal"
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Old 09-17-2009, 03:13 AM
 
Location: RI
17,979 posts, read 8,125,594 times
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David said to Gad, "I am in great trouble. Let the Lord punish me, because the Lord is very merciful. Don’t let my punishment come from human beings."Thank the Lord that a merciful God has the last word on judgement and not christians.
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Old 09-17-2009, 05:42 AM
 
5,925 posts, read 3,133,922 times
Reputation: 626
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Matthew 25:41-46
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed".....

Then your conclusion is that Jesus said this it on April fool's day...
Maybe I misunderstood your conclusion: that those on Jesus' left (were there but never there) were having hallucinations when they reply back....

Matthew 25:41-46
"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?"

When does Jesus' fairy tale starts: Does it now?
Matthew 25:46
"Then they will go away .......to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Based on the arguments for UR, Jesus should have said...

Matthew 25:46
"They go away (at least in my dark side hallucinations but not really), some to my (Jesus') make believe land, but the righteous to _________ life.. oooohhhh nnnnooo it doesn't say eternal"

That's just a translation. Jesus accomplishes his purpose 100%.
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Old 09-17-2009, 07:49 AM
 
10,039 posts, read 4,309,637 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Yes Paul, INLC's statement is correct. Unless you have the kahoonas to call Jesus a liar....
Jesus failed to persuade many people in his time as he said:

Matthew 10:28
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

Who should be afraid of "the One" ..do those who accept "get persuaded" have anything to fear?
Who has the power to destroy?.....not the devil, not sin, not death, not evil.... none of them, (remember they are being destroyed)....guess who (I'll give you two choices)

Matthew 25:41
"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels."

Luke 13:34
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!"

Jesus' words are reject today......even now. Those who find themsef on the left have God's wrath remains on them. ....

Thats unless Jesus is having hallucinations
twin.spin, please get a better translation.
"Eternal" in your passages quoted is incorrect. Aionios is an adjective pertaining to the noun Aion. They get Eonian chastening which is the chastening pertaining to the Eon. No eon is eternal. The Bible says they all end.
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Old 09-17-2009, 07:55 AM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,851 posts, read 2,872,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abegofet View Post
[SIZE=4]Unitarian Universalists Summary and Analysis[/SIZE]
The Unitarian Universalist Association embraces religious pluralism and tolerance of all faiths. They do not regard any sacred books as absolute or infallible. Many Universalists do not believe in God at all and, of those that do, there is a plethora of different views about God.
Universalists do agree God is not a Trinity. They reject the miracles of Jesus Christ, His Virgin Birth, bodily resurrection, and Christ's divinity. Some think Jesus was a great moral teacher while others do not.
Universalists do not accept the need for salvation from sin. In their eyes, people are basically good and do not need a savior to deliver them from sin. They believe people can save themselves with good moral character.

Personally I think this says enough!
Blah...Blah...Blah...why don't you go to a Universalist site to see what we really believe if you are so interested. I could show you thousands of sites where they dog the ETer too. Silly rabbit
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Old 09-17-2009, 07:58 AM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,851 posts, read 2,872,575 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abegofet View Post
[CENTER][SIZE=4]Covenantal Language | Historical Facts[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4]Political Issues | Futurism | Fulfilled[/SIZE][/CENTER]
[SIZE=4]Full vs Hyperpreterism and Abiding Faith[/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][/SIZE][SIZE=2](a statement from Ward Fenley of New Creation Ministries International)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]YouTube[/SIZE]

Both timely and true. Truth is always timely, but I (Tami) felt it especially appropriate in the context of the tone and topic of recent discussions, to share this statement here so that as many people as possible could read it.

Full vs Hyperpreterism and Abiding Faith

It seems that about once a year a reminder needs to be made about the difference between full and hyper preterism.

Full preterism is simply the view that all eschatological events necessary to secure complete redemption for all believers, past, present, and future have been fulfilled. Full preterism is not universalism. Full preterism does not deny the need for faith in Jesus Christ. It merely says that the redemptive events necessary for eternal life (i.e., the cross, resurrection) were accomplished. The Parousia comes through *the* faith of Jesus Christ. That is, it is called *the* Faith because it is given by God. Therefore it is called "the righteousness of the faith" in reference to Abraham. And all who believe believe because they were given faith and considered a part of Him to Whom the promise was made, i.e. "to His Seed, which is Christ." Full preterism affirms the gates of the city are always open (Isaiah 60; Rev 21) for those who were promised everlasting life before the age began. God will give them faith and will give them His Parousia or Presence, through Whose Presence they are immediately placed in the holiest and made the righteousness of Christ.


Hyperpreterism is not universalism. Hyperpreterism is the belief that no one after AD 70 will have eternal life and that no soteriological benefit (i.e. salvific benefit) extends beyond AD 70. They (hyperpreterists) may believe that those particular events happened, but because they do not believe they apply past AD 70, they, by sheer virtue of their own confession, do not believe in the need for forgiveness of sin. After all, if you don't believe Christ died for you since you were born after AD 70, then you do not believe the Gospel as it is clearly portrayed in the Scriptures:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4 And, brothers, I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, which also you have received, and in which you stand; (2) by which you also are being kept safe, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain. (3) For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received, that Christ died for our sins, according to the Scriptures, (4) and that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the Scriptures;

Notice that mandatory within the Gospel elements is to believe "that Christ died for *our* sins." If one believes that Christ only died for those pre-AD 70, then they do not believe Christ died for their sins or the sins of anyone else post AD 70. Again, hyperpreterism is not the Gospel. Belief in the Gospel is to believe that Christ's work was for you.

Please mark the distinctions, as there is always going to be someone or some idea purporting to affirm errant definitions of full preterism and hyperpreterism.

Again, neither full preterism or hyperpreterism is universalism. First of all, a hyperpreterist could not be a universalist because, according to the hyperpreterists, no one after AD 70 has eternal life. This view clearly denies universalism. After all, universalism says that all men everywhere throughout all time have or will have eternal life through any path they take.

And please make the distinction between universalism and universal redemption. Universalism teaches that all roads lead to eternal life. Universal redemption teaches that Christ effectually redeemed all men unrestrictively and that is why all men have or will have eternal life.

Biblical redemption teaches that Christ's death effectually brought about redemption for all He intended to redeem. And the Gospel is that those whom Christ intended to redeem either do believe or one day will believe. To go beyond this affirmation is to step into the mind and knowledge of God. We simply assume that all who confess Jesus as Lord, His Resurrection, and salvation solely by grace are His. We are to make no judgments about who is or who is not elect or who is predestined. Paul simply declares that we as believers are a part of the church, which was predestined to eternal life. If you have true faith given by Christ, that faith will continue, for "we are not of those who draw back unto perdition, but we are of those who believe unto the saving of the soul." cf. "...unless you have believed *in vain*." There are some who have believed in vain:

1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they were of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out so that it might be revealed that they were not all of us.

Though I have heard some say that one's affirmation of fulfilled eschatology either shows one's damnation or salvation, I do not believe this to be so. All of us are at different places in our theological journey, learning as God's gracious Providence commands. We learn no faster or slower than He dictates. We cannot judge one's salvation simply because they are supposedly learning at a slower pace. After all, we preterists above all know that God has been ever so long-suffering toward us, and will always be continually long-suffering toward us as He gradually and eternally removes the baggage of humanism from our minds. The throwing off of baggage is an eternal process, but it is a process that is God-ordained for the eternal acknowledgement by God's children that His mercies indeed endure forever and that His compassions fail not. Physical death does not stop the process of learning; for how could we possibly exhaust the knowledge of the unsearchable riches, holiness, and power of the eternal God? If we were ever able to come to a complete knowledge of God, then would we not be God? Knowing how long-suffering the eternal God will be with our eternally finite knowledge should cause humility and more long-suffering toward others who might not be where we *think* they should be, especially in light of the fact that if they don't immediately believe what we think they should believe, then that is God's absolute sovereignty over their hearts. He knows what is best for them at any given time in the scheme of their eternal pursuit of truth.

Thanks for reading.

Ward

Pointers to Remember
  • Full preterism is simply the view that all eschatological events necessary to secure complete redemption for all believers, past, present, and future have been fulfilled.
  • Hyperpreterism is not universalism. Hyperpreterism is the belief that no one after AD 70 will have eternal life and that no soteriological benefit (i.e. salvific benefit) extends beyond AD 70.
  • Universalism says that all men everywhere throughout all time have or will have eternal life through any path they take.
[CENTER]Make the distinction between universalism and universal redemption.[/CENTER]
  • Universalism teaches that all roads lead to eternal life.
  • Universal redemption teaches that Christ effectually redeemed all men unrestrictively and that is why all men have or will have eternal life.
___________________________________________
none of this sounds remotely close to the core teachings of Jesus Christ!
Blah...Blah...Blah....more close minded silliness
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Old 09-17-2009, 09:13 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque
81 posts, read 98,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
abegofet, most of the people here preaching Universal Salvation are not Unitarian Universalist's.

The universalists here are Christian Universalists, also known as biblical universalists, or the belief in universal salvation or universal reconciliation. There is no official church as far as I know, but the doctrines are 100% biblical. We preach salvation by Jesus Christ alone, we preach that Jesus is the savior of the world, we preach that every knee will bow and every tongue will swear allegiance to Jesus, and we preach that God will reconcile all things through Jesus. We also preach that God is good and powerful enough to make this happen. And that my friend is the 100% scriptural truth.

Are you aware of the major mistranslations of the words "eternal/everlasting/forever" and "hell/hades/gehenna" in many modern bibles? Understanding these mistranslations is a stepping stone to realizing that God will not torment anyone forever, and in fact will eventually save all men, each in their own order.

Its good news for all men, just like Luke 2:10 says.

Of course I am aware that not everyone preaching on this board is a Universalists etc. etc. I am also aware that the original Greek Hebrew, Latin Vulgate texts were actually not misquoted in reference to the words you mentioned that were. If you are making this statement from a secondhand source, I would invite you to verify your sources. They are incorrect, and only serve one purpose... to deceive people!

call me close minded, but I have 2000 years of theologian scholars that are in agreement with what I have said... and I firmly stand behind my conclusions. You have yet to show me a shread of conclusive evidence to prove otherwise... all has been conjecture. I have invited you numerous times to make reference to other translations (Greek, Hebrew, Latin) but no-one as of yet has done just that... all you desire to do is to take verses out of the KJV and NIV that are then twisted completely out of context to make your own nonsensical conclusions to push on the undereducated! I have already mentioned theat the KJV, NIV, NASV versions of the bible are seriously flawed, and thus my request for you to utilize your greek lexicon, but so far no-one has!

why? perhaps you are just too lazy to do the required footwork on your own and instead decide to believe the lies someone else tells you.
That is afterall the easy way out, isn't it. Accept the false doctrine on it's own merrit and call everyone else wrong (using unchristian like name calling) Christygrl I refer to you for the name calling issues and blatent close mindedness! Any more of this and I will turn you in for these infractions! If you have such a need for childlike behavior, I invite you to take it elsewhere!

Last edited by abegofet; 09-17-2009 at 09:48 AM..
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Old 09-17-2009, 09:52 AM
 
9,016 posts, read 4,397,831 times
Reputation: 983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
twin.spin, please get a better translation.
"Eternal" in your passages quoted is incorrect. Aionios is an adjective pertaining to the noun Aion. They get Eonian chastening which is the chastening pertaining to the Eon. No eon is eternal. The Bible says they all end.
Eusebius,
Please don't take this resentfully...That could be said in your case also. You get a better translation. I'm not going to defend the KJV or the NIV any more.
"Get a better translation.".............Better than what? The flawed one you're using? Why should I search the globe that makes Jesus out to be hallucinating with his imaginary friends on his left...who responds back to him, and have the kahoonas not to depart when commanded to do so...

The more I hear of YLT, the more I see why it exists.
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque
81 posts, read 98,219 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyd1975 View Post
If you have the power to chose to accept or reject YOU are doing something that determines the outcome. In your way of thinking the final outcome is up to you not God. Christ made your salvation possible but your 'choice' to believe made it actual according to your theology. Whether you like to use the term or not, claiming that your active choice is a component of your salvation makes you co-redemptor in that theology.
Salvation begins with God changing you and RESULTS in faith. YOU DID NOT CHOOSE TO HAVE FAITH. God did not ask your permision to make you believe. Has it occurred to you that one has to believe in Christ before one can 'choose' to accept him? You did not choose to believe you were compelled by evidence and the Holy Spirit. Once your eyes were opened (this is when God gives you belief in the truth of the Gospel) you of course made the only rational decision (this is when you surrendered and confessed).
Here is what was happening behind the scenes. God was directing every circumstance in your life right down to a trafic light or a mosquito bite to create a 'perfect storm' of conversion. God placed you in a situation that would cause your emotion intelect and soul to be persuaded. He knew exactly what it would take to persuade you and gave it to you. He will do the same for every soul. Some souls require a touch of hell to be persuaded. God knew that when he made them and he made them for such purpose.
Everything that occurs in creation, right down to the individual vibrations of particular sub atomic bodies, was predestined by God Almighty. That's kind of what makes Him almighty.


So with that thinking, what was the whole point of Christ sending out his apostiles to the world to become fishers of men?
Why did paul suffer so to bring the Gospel unto the churches?
what was his point after all?
If we are to believe in universalism, then Christ really had no reason for sending his apostles unto the world. Since Christ had already done all of the fishing necessary through his perfect sacrafice on the cross, why would he send those who truly believed in him on missionary trips as fishers of men?

The revelation of John speaks about Christ separating the sheep from the goats... the goats being cast into eternal darkness

please explain this from your universal point of view
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Old 09-17-2009, 10:03 AM
 
3,552 posts, read 2,726,494 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Eusebius,
Please don't take this resentfully...That could be said in your case also. You get a better translation. I'm not going to defend the KJV or the NIV any more.
"Get a better translation.".............Better than what? The flawed one you're using? Why should I search the globe that makes Jesus out to be hallucinating with his imaginary friends on his left...who responds back to him, and have the kahoonas not to depart when commanded to do so...

The more I hear of YLT, the more I see why it exists.
LOL, agreed.
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