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[SIZE=2]Spiritual beings whether men or angels are not created immortal
The Lord God did not create any living beings to be immortal whether the angels or men. It is stated in the scripture (1 Timothy 6:13) that only God is immortal.
1 Timothy 6:13 - I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.
Eternal life or immortality for created spiritual being is define in the scriptures as unlimited stages of extended life.(Revelation 22:2). The Tree of Life yielded her fruit every month. Thus believers must partake of the fruit month after month after month forever and ever. It symbolise the sustaining power of Lord God extending the believer's spiritual life over one time period to another time period to another time period.............throughout eternity. This is what the Lord Jesus meant by eternal life.
That is why believers have to eat the Bread of Life (Christ body) and drink His blood. It is similarly refer to in Revelation 2:7 as eating from the tree of life and drinking from the Water of Life in Revelation 22:17. The sustaining power of God (Bread of Life/Tree of life) nourishes the spiritual body and keeps it alive. The Holy Spirit (Blood of Christ/Water of life) nourishes the spirit of man to keep it alive. Both are needed to keep the spiritual body and spirit of believers alive throughout eternity. These are given free to the believers only. These supplies will not run out because it is promised by the faithfulness of God's word and because the Lord God is immortal.
Therefore any created being whether angel or man can and will die if they do not partake of the power of God (Tree of Life) and of the Holy Spirit (Water of Life).
John 6:53 - Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Revelation 22:1 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.
Revelation 21: 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
Revelation 2:7 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes. The sinner can and will die.
The sinner will die in a similar way that Christ died on the cross. Just as Christ was lifted up in public display and put to shame, the sinner will be put on public display when being punished. The believers will see it.(Isaiah 66.24). The angels and the Lamb (Lord Jesus) will also see it. (Revelation 14:10)
Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh.
Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Take note of how the Lord God treated Christ as if He was sin when Christ was carrying believers' sin (even though the Lord Jesus was sinless). If the unbeliever does not believe that Lord Jesus takes his place, the unbeliever will have to take his own place as an offering for sin.
Thus it will pleased the Lord to bruise the sinner, and to put the sinner to grief: when God shall make the sinner's soul an offering for sin. The sinner will be wounded for his own transgressions, the sinner will be bruised for his own iniquities.
Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin
Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:
Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:
Until finally, just as the Lord God forsake Christ on the cross, the Lord God will also forsake the sinner. It means the Lord God totally withdrews Himself and His sustaining power from the sinner. Thus the sinner's body and spirit will not be held together by laws that God's power instituted during creation. The sinner will die (Romans 6:23) for the wages of sin is death and there will not be any trace of the sinner.
An abrupt end of the sinner's life (shedding of blood) is necessary in order for the Lord God to forgive his sins. (Hebrews 9:22) This is the second death. Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.
Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
[/SIZE]Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
[SIZE=2]According to scripture(Isaiah 11:4) , it is the Lord Jesus who will slay(kill) the wicked(sinner). He is both the Judge and the Executioner.
Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3. And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4. But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
Thus the sinner will die. There will not be eternal torment. [/SIZE]
The holy spirit is living in every believer, and by that we hold the Kingdom of God . . .he went to prepare a place for us, no eye can see, no brain can imagine the beauty and wonder of it . . . .
He is going to destroy this earth . . . .he is brining his paradaise down to a specific location, with specific measurement, and with a specific invitation on how to get to this party . . . . . . all are invitied, many choose not to come.
And you interpreted all of that earthly physicalness from a book of signs and symbols.
And you interpreted all of that earthly physicalness from a book of signs and symbols.
Jesus studied every Sabbath, quoted scripture . . . . guess you also feel that Jesus wasted time, was a liar quoting from a book that was just a bunch of b.s.??
Jesus studied every Sabbath, quoted scripture . . . . guess you also feel that Jesus wasted time, was a liar quoting from a book that was just a bunch of b.s.??
Jesus never wasted His time at all. He even said this:
Luke 17:20-21...Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The kingdom of God does not come with your careful observation, 21nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is within you."
Let me reiterate what I said previously. Revelation is a book of signs and symbols and not something to be taken literally, they sumbolize something else. Jesus told us himself you would not physically see the kingdom...do you see that? So why don't you believe Him?
[SIZE=2]Spiritual beings whether men or angels are not created immortal[/SIZE] [SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]The Lord God did not create any living beings to be immortal whether the angels or men. It is stated in the scripture (1 Timothy 6:13) that only God is immortal. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]1 Timothy 6:13 - I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Eternal life or immortality for created spiritual being is define in the scriptures as unlimited stages of extended life.(Revelation 22:2). The Tree of Life yielded her fruit every month. Thus believers must partake of the fruit month after month after month forever and ever. It symbolise the sustaining power of Lord God extending the believer's spiritual life over one time period to another time period to another time period.............throughout eternity. This is what the Lord Jesus meant by eternal life.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]That is why believers have to eat the Bread of Life (Christ body) and drink His blood. It is similarly refer to in Revelation 2:7 as eating from the tree of life and drinking from the Water of Life in Revelation 22:17. The sustaining power of God (Bread of Life/Tree of life) nourishes the spiritual body and keeps it alive. The Holy Spirit (Blood of Christ/Water of life) nourishes the spirit of man to keep it alive. Both are needed to keep the spiritual body and spirit of believers alive throughout eternity. These are given free to the believers only. These supplies will not run out because it is promised by the faithfulness of God's word and because the Lord God is immortal.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Therefore any created being whether angel or man can and will die if they do not partake of the power of God (Tree of Life) and of the Holy Spirit (Water of Life). [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]John 6:53 - Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Revelation 22:1 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb. 2. In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Revelation 21: 6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Revelation 2:7 - He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Revelation 7:16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17. For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]The sinner can and will die.[/SIZE] [SIZE=2] [/SIZE] [SIZE=2]The sinner will die in a similar way that Christ died on the cross. Just as Christ was lifted up in public display and put to shame, the sinner will be put on public display when being punished. The believers will see it.(Isaiah 66.24). The angels and the Lamb (Lord Jesus) will also see it. (Revelation 14:10)[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Isaiah 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look on the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring to all flesh.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Take note of how the Lord God treated Christ as if He was sin when Christ was carrying believers' sin (even though the Lord Jesus was sinless). If the unbeliever does not believe that Lord Jesus takes his place, the unbeliever will have to take his own place as an offering for sin. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Thus it will pleased the Lord to bruise the sinner, and to put the sinner to grief: when God shall make the sinner's soul an offering for sin. The sinner will be wounded for his own transgressions, the sinner will be bruised for his own iniquities. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Isaiah 53:10 Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he has put him to grief: when you shall make his soul an offering for sin[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Isaiah 53:5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied:[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Until finally, just as the Lord God forsake Christ on the cross, the Lord God will also forsake the sinner. It means the Lord God totally withdrews Himself and His sustaining power from the sinner. Thus the sinner's body and spirit will not be held together by laws that God's power instituted during creation. The sinner will die (Romans 6:23) for the wages of sin is death and there will not be any trace of the sinner. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]An abrupt end of the sinner's life (shedding of blood) is necessary in order for the Lord God to forgive his sins. (Hebrews 9:22) This is the second death.[/SIZE] [SIZE=2]Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Isaiah 1:28 And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Psalms 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Psalms 37:10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Romans 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2][/SIZE]Hebrews 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
[SIZE=2]According to scripture(Isaiah 11:4) , it is the Lord Jesus who will slay(kill) the wicked(sinner). He is both the Judge and the Executioner.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=2]Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 2. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; 3. And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: 4. But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.[/SIZE] [SIZE=2]Thus the sinner will die. There will not be eternal torment.[/SIZE] [SIZE=2][/SIZE]
I agree with some of what you say, however, how do you believe a sinner comes to God. Does God call the sinner (Jn 6:44/Jn 1:10/Jn3:3-8) or do you believe in free will choice?
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl The holy spirit is living in every believer, and by that we hold the Kingdom of God . . .he went to prepare a place for us, no eye can see, no brain can imagine the beauty and wonder of it . . . .
He is going to destroy this earth . . . .he is brining his paradaise down to a specific location, with specific measurement, and with a specific invitation on how to get to this party . . . . . . all are invitied, many choose not to come.
Christygrl
I don't know if you realize it or not but you just contradicted your own argument. Yes it is true that the Holy Spirit dwells in every believer. I ask you how did he get there? We had to first believe! And that is the only act God requires on part of a person that allows entry into the His kingdom!
Please attempt to explain from a universalists point of view, the obove three references
Hi abegofet,
Using Matt 25 as proof of eternal torment has been debunked many many times on this forum and in many different articles. Try searching through some other posts, or check out these sites:
But here is a quick answer. Lets start with the biggee. Mattew 25:46
Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
The correct translation here is "eonian" punishment and "eonian" life. "eonian" simply means pertaining to the ages (eons). Check out a literal translation like Young's or the Concordant. So the wicked receive punishment pertaining to the eons, and the righteous receive life pertaining to the eons.
What is "eonian" life? John 17:3 tells us:
Now this is eternal [eonian] life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
So the righteous will simply "know God". Now will this "life" end? No, but not because it is eonian. It doesn't end because we are promised immortality, which simply means we will never die (1 Cor 15).
The parable of the talents and the parable of the ten virgins are like most of the parables Jesus taught. Some will not enter into the Kingdom. They will weep and gnash their teeth. They are cast outside. Is this eternal hell? No.
They become subjects of the kingdom:
Matt 8:12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
The subjects are ruled over by those in the Kingdom reign. When it talks about "entering the Kingdom", this is talking about the Kingdom reign. Not everyone will reign with Christ. The kingdom reign with Christ is not forever, but only for the ages of the ages.
Those who are reigining over the subjects are called for a very special purpose. They will be judges, ministers, and priests. They will rule with a rod of iron (Rev 2:26) - they will break the wills of the subjects so that they come to Christ. They will be instrumental in making everyone a subject of Christ. They will effectively help save the entire world, with Christ working through them. Eventually all will be subjected to Christ, Christ will defeat the last enemy death, and then God will be all in all (1 Cor 15:22-28).
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so. 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that producesthorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. 9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. The Certainty of God's Promise
13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants."[c] 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised. 16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
Footnotes:
<LI id=fen-NIV-30030a>Hebrews 6:1 Or from useless rituals <LI id=fen-NIV-30035b>Hebrews 6:6 Or repentance while
1Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3And God permitting, we will do so. 4It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because[b]to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. 7Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8But land that producesthorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned. 9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are confident of better things in your case—things that accompany salvation. 10God is not unjust; he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. 11We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, in order to make your hope sure. 12We do not want you to become lazy, but to imitate those who through faith and patience inherit what has been promised. The Certainty of God's Promise
13When God made his promise to Abraham, since there was no one greater for him to swear by, he swore by himself, 14saying, "I will surely bless you and give you many descendants."[c] 15And so after waiting patiently, Abraham received what was promised. 16Men swear by someone greater than themselves, and the oath confirms what is said and puts an end to all argument. 17Because God wanted to make the unchanging nature of his purpose very clear to the heirs of what was promised, he confirmed it with an oath. 18God did this so that, by two unchangeable things in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled to take hold of the hope offered to us may be greatly encouraged. 19We have this hope as an anchor for the soul, firm and secure. It enters the inner sanctuary behind the curtain, 20where Jesus, who went before us, has entered on our behalf. He has become a high priest forever, in the order of Melchizedek.
Footnotes:
<LI id=fen-NIV-30030a>Hebrews 6:1 Or from useless rituals <LI id=fen-NIV-30035b>Hebrews 6:6 Or repentance while
I trust you are asking about Heb 6:8. Do you think this verse is talking about eternal hell? When you believe in eternal hell, everything looks like it points to eternal hell. Read some of the articles I have been posting.
But here is some food for thought.
But land that producesthorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
This land is in danger of being cursed. Will it be cursed forever? What about all curses? What about those "accursed" thrown in the "eternal" fire in Matt 25:41? The good news is all curses will end one day.
Rev 22:3 No longer will there be a curse upon anything.
What about the burning of land? Surely you know fire is used as a symbol for judgment, for refining, for purging, and for purifying. Fire is also used as a symbol for God. Do not assume burning/fire means eternal hell.
We shall all be salted with fire. We shall go through the fire - our works will be burned up, but even if you suffer loss, you will saved through fire.
Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,
Isaiah 45:23 I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
Let me ask you this.
Why does everyone swear allegiance to God, if most of them are going into hell for eternity? Do you think the grace of God has not brought salvation to all men?
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl The holy spirit is living in every believer, and by that we hold the Kingdom of God . . .he went to prepare a place for us, no eye can see, no brain can imagine the beauty and wonder of it . . . .
He is going to destroy this earth . . . .he is brining his paradaise down to a specific location, with specific measurement, and with a specific invitation on how to get to this party . . . . . . all are invitied, many choose not to come.
Christygrl
I don't know if you realize it or not but you just contradicted your own argument. Yes it is true that the Holy Spirit dwells in every believer. I ask you how did he get there? We had to first believe! And that is the only act God requires on part of a person that allows entry into the His kingdom!
FYI...this quote you have place here does not belong to me...perhaps you should get it together before you attach my name to things.
Here is the original post I made and what you have posted is the response of lifesigns64.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl The Kingdom of God is within you....it is not a physical earthly place. Jesus said this himself.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lifesigns64
The holy spirit is living in every believer, and by that we hold the Kingdom of God . . .he went to prepare a place for us, no eye can see, no brain can imagine the beauty and wonder of it . . . .
He is going to destroy this earth . . . .he is brining his paradaise down to a specific location, with specific measurement, and with a specific invitation on how to get to this party . . . . . . all are invitied, many choose not to come.
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