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Old 09-15-2009, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,852 posts, read 3,089,217 times
Reputation: 776
[quote=abegofet;10765674]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Eusebius View Post
The choice is yours where you spend eternity, Not God's. Verse 28 below says "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. This does not sound like a God who has predestined..., Quite the opposite. If you choose not to come, then it becomes your own fault where you end up!

25At that time Jesus said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. 26Yes, Father, for this was your good pleasure.

27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. 28"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. 29Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."
I beg you differ on your profound "freewiller" argument based on the same scripture you just gave as proof of your "freewill" choice.

27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Do you see that here...it is the Son's choice)

No one will know God until He is revealed to that person by God Himself. Jn 6:44

There is no such thing as a "freewill" choice to follow God and the quicker people realize this, the better of all Christians will be.

(See 1 Cor 2:14, Jn 6:44, Jn 3:3-8 & Romans 8:28-30) There are many more but that should keep you occupied for awhile.
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:29 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
81 posts, read 104,667 times
Reputation: 17
[quote=ChristyGrl;10770379]
Quote:
Originally Posted by abegofet View Post

I beg you differ on your profound "freewiller" argument based on the same scripture you just gave as proof of your "freewill" choice.

27"All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Do you see that here...it is the Son's choice)

No one will know God until He is revealed to that person by God Himself. Jn 6:44

There is no such thing as a "freewill" choice to follow God and the quicker people realize this, the better of all Christians will be.

(See 1 Cor 2:14, Jn 6:44, Jn 3:3-8 & Romans 8:28-30) There are many more but that should keep you occupied for awhile.



Just who do you think is the final judge in all matters is? Even as a Christian, I am not allowed into God's presence without first being invited into his presence through Christ his Son. Christ is the final Judge as to whome he reveals to God. The manner in which he judges us worthy of being invited into God's presence is to determine weather we have accepted his sacrifice for the attonement of our sins. The original Greek for the word "Chooses" would better be translated as "Judges worthy of" (get a greek lexicon if you choose not to accept this). pun intended...

Again you are using a single verse out of context to make a meaningless point.
since you obviously refuse to pray for the Holy Spirit's wisdom over this matter, as suggested in the verse you gave me to look up (1 Cor 2:14)
I suggest you do your homework by studying Gods word more thouroughly, using a greek Lexicon when needed, and perhaps referring to the Hebrew translations (which are more reliable than the KJV version you so seriously adhear to)!

The simple fact of the matter is that your argument that it is Christ who chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell is the doctrine of predestination. Christ does not predetermine who ends up in hell, he allows you to do that all on your own. He is simply the judge as to where a person is to spend eternity. Yes it is free-will! and if you don't believe it, then I seriously suggest you do a thourough study on the word "Choose " in the verse you quoted. This mis-translated word is what launched the false doctrine of predestination. Check it out for yourself.

As for the other verses you mentioned "(See 1 Cor 2:14, Jn 6:44, Jn 3:3-8 & Romans 8:28-30)" I suggest you do the same for them. American translations of the bible are terrible at best - use the Greek translations whenever possible!

I suggest you browse to the following link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_will_in_theology

With this said, your argument will not hold water!

Last edited by abegofet; 09-15-2009 at 04:51 PM..
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:48 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,654,583 times
Reputation: 495
[quote=abegofet;10772239]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
Just who do you think is the final judge in all matters is? Even as a Christian, I am not allowed into God's presence without first being invited into his presence through Christ his Son. Christ is the final Judge as to whome he reveals to God. The manner in which he judges us worthy of being invited into God's presence is to determine weather we have accepted his sacrifice for the attonement of our sins. The original Greek for the word "Chooses" would better be translated as "Judges worthy of" (get a greek lexicon if you choose not to accept this). pun intended...

Again you are using a single verse out of context to make a meaningless point.
since you obviously refuse to pray for the Holy Spirit's wisdom over this matter, as suggested in the verse you gave me to look up (1 Cor 2:14)
I suggest you do your homework by studying Gods word more thouroughly, using a greek Lexicon when needed, and perhaps referring to the Hebrew translations (which are more reliable than the KJV version you so seriously adhear to)!

The simple fact of the matter is that your argument that it is Christ who chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell is the doctrine of predestination. Christ does not predetermine who ends up in hell, he allows you to do that all on your own. He is simply the judge as to where a person is to spend eternity. Yes it is free-will! and if you don't believe it, then I seriously suggest you do a thourough study on the word "Choose " in the verse you quoted. This mis-translated word is what launched the false doctrine of predestination. Check it out for yourself.

As for the other verses you mentioned "(See 1 Cor 2:14, Jn 6:44, Jn 3:3-8 & Romans 8:28-30)" I suggest you do the same for them. American translations of the bible are terrible at best - use the Greek translations whenever possible!

With this said, your argument will not hold water!
Try this then... I will make it really simple.


Romans 3:22-24 (Young's Literal Translation)
22and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference,
23for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --
24being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus,



How do you interpret this verse?

Isn't it saying that all sinned and are declared righteous by the faith OF Jesus Christ to ALL and those who believe? THERE is no difference between us for ALL have sinned!
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,852 posts, read 3,089,217 times
Reputation: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by abegofet View Post
The simple fact of the matter is that your argument that it is Christ who chooses who will go to heaven and who will go to hell is the doctrine of predestination. Christ does not predetermine who ends up in hell, he allows you to do that all on your own.
First things first...I don't believe anyone goes to "Hell"...so keep your nasty attitude to yourself. This is a Christian board...why not try acting like one.

With that said, I don't think Christ's words can be any clearer than this.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

No one, doesn't mean some people who choose to follow, the poor, the rich, those who go to church, those who don't go to church, black people, white people, green people...it means NO ONE!!!!

The doctrine of freewill choice is the sovereignty of man over God and is totally unbiblical. It leaves God at the mercy of a choice of man and makes salvation a work of man and not a gift of God. Man says, I save myself by my choice to follow God. God is absolutely sovereign and He decides, He predestines...this never sits well with freewillers but it doesn't negate the fact that it is clearly laid out in every book of the NT. Grace is no longer grace if it is a work of man to choose. Salvation is a gift of God not a work of man...never was and never will be.
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:55 PM
 
Location: Pike Road, Alabama
4,852 posts, read 3,089,217 times
Reputation: 776
Quote:
Originally Posted by katjonjj View Post

Try this then... I will make it really simple.


Romans 3:22-24 (Young's Literal Translation)
22and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference,
23for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --
24being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus,



How do you interpret this verse?

Isn't it saying that all sinned and are declared righteous by the faith OF Jesus Christ to ALL and those who believe? THERE is no difference between us for ALL have sinned!
That was not my quote....it came from this one who doesn't understand the Sovereignty of God. (abegofet)
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Old 09-15-2009, 04:56 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
81 posts, read 104,667 times
Reputation: 17
[quote=katjonjj;10772525]
Quote:
Originally Posted by abegofet View Post

Try this then... I will make it really simple.


Romans 3:22-24 (Young's Literal Translation)
22and the righteousness of God [is] through the faith of Jesus Christ to all, and upon all those believing, -- for there is no difference,
23for all did sin, and are come short of the glory of God --
24being declared righteous freely by His grace through the redemption that [is] in Christ Jesus,



How do you interpret this verse?

Isn't it saying that all sinned and are declared righteous by the faith OF Jesus Christ to ALL and those who believe? THERE is no difference between us for ALL have sinned!

Your point???

Yes we are all guilty of sin, but not everyone will be found righteous unless through their faith in Jesus Christ (to all those who believe)

Why is this so difficult to grasp???
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:04 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
81 posts, read 104,667 times
Reputation: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
First things first...I don't believe anyone goes to "Hell"...so keep your nasty attitude to yourself. This is a Christian board...why not try acting like one.

With that said, I don't think Christ's words can be any clearer than this.

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.

No one, doesn't mean some people who choose to follow, the poor, the rich, those who go to church, those who don't go to church, black people, white people, green people...it means NO ONE!!!!

The doctrine of freewill choice is the sovereignty of man over God and is totally unbiblical. It leaves God at the mercy of a choice of man and makes salvation a work of man and not a gift of God. Man says, I save myself by my choice to follow God. God is absolutely sovereign and He decides, He predestines...this never sits well with freewillers but it doesn't negate the fact that it is clearly laid out in every book of the NT. Grace is no longer grace if it is a work of man to choose. Salvation is a gift of God not a work of man...never was and never will be.
Again you are taking text out of context and reading your own will into these verses!

I seriously advise you to use your greek lexicon if nothing else to determine for yourself the meaning of this verse. Quit leaning on other people to tell you only that what you want to hear.

free will link: Free will - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
81 posts, read 104,667 times
Reputation: 17
[quote=ChristyGrl;10772608]First things first...I don't believe anyone goes to "Hell"...so keep your nasty attitude to yourself. This is a Christian board...why not try acting like one.

first of all, the doctrine relating to hell is a fundimental Christian doctrine, and not a secular doctrine. the nasty attitude you so kindly refer to belongs to God I am simply his servent who is attempting to explain this to you

secondly as a christian minister, I take offense to your attitude as well, but since you are seeking answers to questions, I will overlook your infraction on this board and do the "christian thing" and forgive your tresspass.

Yes this is a Christian board, and if you do not believe in the core fundimental christian beliefs, than I ask why are you even browsing this board???
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:31 PM
 
Location: Seattle, Washington
6,805 posts, read 4,654,583 times
Reputation: 495
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristyGrl View Post
That was not my quote....it came from this one who doesn't understand the Sovereignty of God. (abegofet)
I apologize for the misquote. I thought it odd but didn't inquire further.

I don't think I can change it now though. I hate it when the quotes get all mixed up...
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Old 09-15-2009, 05:43 PM
 
Location: Albuquerque
81 posts, read 104,667 times
Reputation: 17
for those of you who do not believe in sheol, abadon, Hades, Hell
please read:

Sheol, Hades, Hell, Paradise, & Heaven

Hades, hell, sheol, gehenna

Hell - Sheol - Hades - Gehenna - Tartaroo - Lake Of Fire - Outer Darkness - Second Death

What is the difference between Sheol, Hades, Hell, the lake of fire, Paradise, and Abrahamís bosom?

Perhaps this will help to change your thinking
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